gsxrpilot Posted November 11, 2020 Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 I'll just throw my $0.02 in here and hope I'm not over charging. I would try to find an airplane YOU like and one that won't break your budget. Try to underspend and then just see how it goes. Don't try to find that 20 year airplane on the first go. Most of us have done better finding the forever airplane on the second one after really verifying the mission and the family's level of interest and involvement. Some like the good doctor, @KLRDMD is 37 airplanes in and still trying to figure out the mission but the rest of us are exceedingly greatful he is doing all that research so we don't have to. I was first partners in an F33A but then sold my share and moved away from ownership for a few years. I came back and the second time, with a different family configuration, (kids gone), I bought an M20C. It was way under what I could afford, but certainly wasn't going to a problem if the whole ownership thing didn't work out. I didn't really know how much we'd fly it, if the wife would ever get comfortable, or if the maintenance would try to bankrupt me. After two years and 400 hours in that M20C, all those questions had been answered, and it was time to go find what would really fit the situation best. Other than gas, the M20C probably cost me about $20 an hour. And I sold it for more than I'd paid for it. Don't try to pick the perfect one on the first try. You don't have all the info yet. And you can't. BTW... the whole age thing is a bit arbitrary and something you'd be better off to ignore. You'd much rather have a 50 year old airplane that flies every week and has been well maintained, than a 30 year old airplane that just sits in a hangar. And that's just the first of many reasons. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted November 11, 2020 Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 Going faster than 155ktas loaded up to gross, isn't very realistic in most N/A IO-360 mooney's without running 75% power or more burning more fuel ROP. Be good to your engine and it will be good to you. Running hard routinely over water is not a recipe I would want to involve my family with. Mooney's typically lose between 5-10kts at gross compared to solo. My F, running 65% at peak is good for about 147ktas lightly loaded or about 140ktas at gross. Very few mooney owners will admit publicly the real world cruise loaded up to gross.. IMHO... Also, 150lbs baggage will exceed 120lbs max baggage area. Flying over large areas of water with long distances between the very few instrument approaches, I would strongly recommend considering something like a twin Comanche as a better fit for your mission. There are nose and wing locker STCs to solve the baggage volume you will have, and it's fast enough with cheap, bulletproof engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said: ing over large areas of water with long distances between the very few instrument approaches, I would strongly recommend considering something like a twin Comanche as a better fit for your mission. There are nose and wing locker STCs to solve the baggage volume you will have, and it's fast enough with cheap, bulletproof engines. I do not have any time in twins but I have looked into it. I worry that the maintenance costs are going to kick me in the pants very quick. Having said that I agree over water for 80 miles on a single engine is definitely not a time to push hard. Edited November 11, 2020 by Misiu02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 11, 2020 Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 Just now, Misiu02 said: I do not have any time in twins but I have looked into it. I worry that the maintenance costs are going to kick me in the pants very quick. Having said that I agree over water for 80 miles on a single engine is definitely not a time to push hard. As Paul has mentioned, I've owned a few airplanes, both singles and twins. Over and over I have demonstrated that a twin will cost 50% more per year to own and operate than a somewhat similar single. There are old threads on MS that you should be able to find. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 27 minutes ago, KLRDMD said: As Paul has mentioned, I've owned a few airplanes, both singles and twins. Over and over I have demonstrated that a twin will cost 50% more per year to own and operate than a somewhat similar single. There are old threads on MS that you should be able to find That matches with what I have found in my research. As nice as it would be to have a twin it's likely not practical. At least not with my budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 11, 2020 Report Share Posted November 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said: My F, running 65% at peak is good for about 147ktas lightly loaded or about 140ktas at gross. Very few mooney owners will admit publicly the real world cruise loaded up to gross.. IMHO... See about the same, it isn’t just Mooney owners. Everyone stretches their TAS #’s... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 A few people have been fortunate with buying their last plane first... There are a couple of people that have turned their M20Cs into forever planes around here... one upgrade at a time... I know one MSer with a an M20J that now has a backseater to fill the empty void... Short bodies, four people, and long flights... probably don’t go very well together... Prices of twins have fallen through the floor lately... finding one that has been constantly flying will be a tougher search... Forever planes and families are an interesting challenge... the back seaters grow so quickly... then they get their own planes... So... 1) Pick your favorite size... Short, medium, long body... 2) Then select your favorite type of engine... Normally aspirated, turbo charged, or TN’d... 3) Select your favorite amount of power... 4) Add in all the color screens... and AP... Plan on working through the numbers... a few times... the budget that your finance administrator handed you isn’t enough to select all... I went with a two step path... M20C and M20R... Go Mooney! PP thoughts only, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny moose Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 Over water, family on board, maybe not legally required with proper routing to the bahamas but shouldn't raft and vests be included in the planning. Buying your own or renting, where you gonna put them for easy access Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 CFR § 91.509 describes the required survival gear for overwater flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Shiny moose said: Over water, family on board, maybe not legally required with proper routing to the bahamas but shouldn't raft and vests be included in the planning. Buying your own or renting, where you gonna put them for easy access Good morning. Yes it's a critical component. I already have them and an epirb. I was including that in the luggage calculations. I just took the total luggage weight and divided by 3 or 4 in the estimates I provided. They add about 21 lbs to the mix. Edited November 12, 2020 by Misiu02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted November 13, 2020 Report Share Posted November 13, 2020 14 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said: CFR § 91.509 describes the required survival gear for overwater flight. For subpart F aircraft that is correct. For a Mooney, not so much. Not saying what is smart; just pointing out you do not need any survival gear for non-commercial part 91 flights in small singles and twins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 13, 2020 Report Share Posted November 13, 2020 Smart is putting them all in the back seat... ready to go... With a plan of who does what... including where to tie the raft to... You will probably have many minutes to get situated... and properly get things from the baggage compartment... But a rogue wave may make things incredibly difficult... Plan for the rogue wave... The more you plan... the less likely you will need this stuff... PP thoughts only, never landed on water.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted November 13, 2020 Report Share Posted November 13, 2020 On 11/11/2020 at 11:05 AM, Misiu02 said: I do not have any time in twins but I have looked into it. I worry that the maintenance costs are going to kick me in the pants very quick. Having said that I agree over water for 80 miles on a single engine is definitely not a time to push hard. With your budget, you could get a pa30 and set aside the balance for MX.. as others have said, the challenge is finding one that is well kept and flown regularly. Recent 1000hr gear AD and condition of the heater are things to look for apart from the standard lookout for corrosion, etc. I’ve seen io-320s that were treated right go beyond 4000hrs.. the props that go on those are comparatively cheap as well. To get your multiengine rating, it would probably cost you about 2amu if renting. Insurance will be about 1amu more for same hull value. Annual inspection around here would be about .5-1 amu more. Fuel burn for a 350nm trip would be about $40more and get there ~25-30min quicker with less pucker factor. A couple hours of MEI dual every year would be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said: With your budget, you could get a pa30 and set aside the balance for MX.. as others have said, the challenge is finding one that is well kept and flown regularly. Recent 1000hr gear AD and condition of the heater are things to look for apart from the standard lookout for corrosion, etc. I’ve seen io-320s that were treated right go beyond 4000hrs.. the props that go on those are comparatively cheap as well. To get your multiengine rating, it would probably cost you about 2amu if renting. Insurance will be about 1amu more for same hull value. Annual inspection around here would be about .5-1 amu more. Fuel burn for a 350nm trip would be about $40more and get there ~25-30min quicker with less pucker factor. A couple hours of MEI dual every year would be a good idea. It is definitely an Idea. I have two very high risk individuals in my house so any training is on hold until my wife is comfortable. At the very least its worth going up a few times behind the yoke of a twin to see if it works for me. With COVID ramping up again im thinking I likely wont be buying until the end of next year at this point. Thank you for the thoughts. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted November 13, 2020 Report Share Posted November 13, 2020 19 hours ago, MikeOH said: For subpart F aircraft that is correct. For a Mooney, not so much. Not saying what is smart; just pointing out you do not need any survival gear for non-commercial part 91 flights in small singles and twins. You are correct, thanks. 91.501 defines applicability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 If possible try to fly as many planes as possible to build your own opinion. I'd choose something that YOU like to fly. Your passengers really won't care that much and one trip to Bahamas every once and while won't be a deal breaker even if comfort is not great. I can't say for you but from my experience I find that initially most of the time you will either fly solo or with one pax because flying is what we love most about our airplanes. Mode of transportation is second to that. In my humble opinion find the plane you like to fly and the rest will follow and hey if it can't make it to Bahamas don't worry, you may take as much luggage as you want on the airliner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasturepilot Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 @Misiu02 Before I continue, lemme say I own a C model. My wife and I use it for roaming the continent and it’s a great bird for us... but, I understand the challenges that family can present. The mooney cabin isn’t so much cramped, as it is unconventional for the uninitiated. There’s legroom for the front seats but the seats themselves sit kind of low within a cabin that isn’t super tall to begin with. It can feel more like a sports car or a go-cart to folks expecting a family sedan or minivan. I know you threw the F33 Bonanza out there as an option. have you considered the Bonanza-lite, which is branded as the Debonair? The flying club where I grew up had one and I spent a little time in the back seat as a teenager, on $100 hamburger runs. It’s got a Bonanza-sized cabin, Oleos on all three legs for rough fields, and the fuel burn won’t break the bank. It’s got 1200 lb useful load, too. I see one on barnstormers in the 60’s that would probably need paint and interior. You’d still be well under the 100K budget. It’s also a little faster than my C model. I’d say something about the cost of Beechcraft parts but I paid something like $80 each for washers to shim my mooney engine with. So much for my lifetime habit of referring to Beech parts prices as the Mercedes among Chevrolets in general aviation! I mean, we’re here because we love Mooneys, but we’d hate to see you wind up with one and not enjoy it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 4 hours ago, Lucas said: I can't say for you but from my experience I find that initially most of the time you will either fly solo or with one pax because flying is what we love most about our airplanes. Mode of transportation is second to that. In my humble opinion find the plane you like to fly and the rest will follow and hey if it can't make it to Bahamas don't worry, you may take as much luggage as you want on the airliner. Its a good point. I likely will be doing most of my flying solo, at least until the kids are older. However, for me its not just the act of flying itself that I enjoy (although I love it) rather its the functionality and freedom that comes along with plane ownership that I am really interested. I do not know if anyone has been following the Starlink internet corp or not but they have just completed beta testing on their Sat internet system and all signs point to enough bandwidth and low enough latency that VOIP will work from anywhere. For me this presents some unique opportunities in the Bahamas around working on unpopulated areas for the summer months at little to no costs beyond generator diesel. Which is a bit of a long term dream for me. There are no commercial flights in the Exuma's (not really anyway) and due to requirements for work I need to be able to get back to Florida on my own time with little notice. It almost requires a plane to make feasible. To be honest what I really NEED to meet all my criteria is something like a Piper Saratoga Retract. However, from a cost perspective this is not terribly feasible on my budget . The Mooney is likely about as close as I can get with the added benefit of being a hell of a lot of fun to fly, perfect when its just me, and the right price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Pasturepilot said: have you considered the Bonanza-lite, which is branded as the Debonair? Actually I love the Debonair. I have actually spent quite a bit of time in them. I am just very uncomfortable purchasing anything manufactured before 1975 ish. Not that there is anything special about 1975 or later aircraft I just have a thing about buying a plane that old for some reason. At the end of the day I might not have a choice but it wont be my first choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Misiu02 said: Actually I love the Debonair. I have actually spent quite a bit of time in them. I am just very uncomfortable purchasing anything manufactured before 1975 ish. Not that there is anything special about 1975 or later aircraft I just have a thing about buying a plane that old for some reason. At the end of the day I might not have a choice but it wont be my first choice. The 1965 S35 Bonanza I just sold last month had 8,700 hours on the airframe and 2,100 hours on the engine. It looked practically brand new and mechanically was excellent. As a matter of fact I feel my Bonanza was in better shape and I trusted it much more than a previous 2001 Cirrus SR-22 I had (that I owned in 2005 with less than 500 hours total time). Age of an airplane is irrelevant, especially age of a Bonanza. Edited November 15, 2020 by KLRDMD 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 3 hours ago, KLRDMD said: Age of an airplane is irrelevant, especially age of a Bonanza I don't feel a concern about age as it relates to airframe or mechanics. Its more the little things for me. Wiring, switches, connections. Etc etc. They all can be replaced and improved but the older something is the more often I find I need to do something to keep it trustworthy. That and it seems the older something is there is just a little bit extra time required for each thing. You go in to fix a) and find two other things that should be done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 So a 45 year old airplane is much better in this regard than a 55 year old airplane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misiu02 Posted November 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, KLRDMD said: So a 45 year old airplane is much better in this regard than a 55 year old airplane? No not really. Every little bit helps though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 I think you'll find it is much more airframe specific dependent than age dependent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 Other than model year upgrades like electric gear vs manual or short body vs long etc. The age is far less important than how it's been maintained over the years. I don't even know if our mooney's even have any limit on airframe hours. Newer does not mean better. Don't get hung up on an arbitrary age. You may pass up the best candidates 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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