Need your opinions

[Misiu02]

1 minute ago, Danb said:

Hate to suggest a Cardinal RG, it meets your needs, two large doors, a little slower, roomier etc. I’m definitely not a C guy but with your wife’s apprehension the high wing along with two doors may work. Good luck, also consider there’s a lot of available women out there.

Alot of available women out there... But only so many that will put up with me :-)

[skydvrboy]

I don't know about others, but my wife actually finds comfort in the low wing.  She says it feels like there is actually something holding you up, rather than a high wing where you are just hanging there with nothing between you and the ground. YMMV.

As for your mission, either an F or a J with a decent useful load would likely work best.  Even a C or E would work, but the comfort for that 4th person may be ideal.  Just depends how often they are going.  Or you could just tell them to suck it up, if they want more comfort, they can buy you a bigger plane!

[Misiu02]

28 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I'm going to say bonanza. The safety issue with the Vtail isn't an issue if you balance them properly. If you have an issue with a Vtail, F33 is always an option. They are also within your budget.

You know I completely forgot about the F33 I will need to look into that thank you.     I will see if I can get a good A&P to talk with me about the Vtail.  Possibly its just a stigma.

[Misiu02]

6 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

they can buy you a bigger plane!

So now im thinking I just cram them all into the smallest thing I can find and then use that to convince my wife to increase the budget :-)

[EricJ]

44 minutes ago, Misiu02 said:

You know I completely forgot about the F33 I will need to look into that thank you.     I will see if I can get a good A&P to talk with me about the Vtail.  Possibly its just a stigma.

Look into the "cuff" mod, which I suspect almost all of them would have by now.   To my understanding this pretty much resolved the flight integrity issues with the V-tails.   The main other issue with a V-tail is that they swim around a little differently in oscillation modes and cross wind reponses differently than a conventional tail, but obviously not so bad that most people make a big deal of it.    This is just my processing of the various stuff that gets thrown around about them.   I don't have a lot of personal experience other than having looked at them before I bought my airplane, and still look at them from time to time as either replacements or project candidates for flipping.

[bonal]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

I'm going to say bonanza. The safety issue with the Vtail isn't an issue if you balance them properly. If you have an issue with a Vtail, F33 is always an option. They are also within your budget.

Blasphemy 

[Niko182]

55 minutes ago, Misiu02 said:

You know I completely forgot about the F33 I will need to look into that thank you.     I will see if I can get a good A&P to talk with me about the Vtail.  Possibly its just a stigma.

The F33A will be considerably faster than the 155MPH base cruise speed you have listed. Especially with an IO550. Expect about 170ish knots with the 550, useful load around 1200 to 1300 pounds. The Mid body Mooneys will also all be faster than the 155MPH base you gave. Expect about 143 to 155 knots depending on the type and how much fuel you're willing to give. make sure you test the aircraft's empty weight with the CG with your given mission. Bonanzas don't have the same MPG as the NA Mooneys do, but they are quite spacious as far as the cabin is concerned and are rightfully so faster than the NA mid and short body Mooneys. You are comparing 196hp to about 305 - 315HP. The Mooney is spacious too, but I'd say its a different type of spacious. If sight seeing is a part of it, the visibility in diamonds and high wing cessnas tend to be the best, but there's a trade off for everything. The Mooney has the smallest windows, but I wouldn't say its bad either. I can still always enjoy the view from my plane.

The post 1982ish models have the advantage that you can individually fold one of the 2 backs seats down. If you're taking a dog, this would benefit you greatly. If you go the F33 route, with the amount of luggage you plan on taking, I think the extended baggage door and baggage area mod is a requirement. In the bonanzas, the seats come out of the plane. In the (post 82ish) Mooneys, the seats fold down. Tips on the Bo, and Monroy tanks on the Mooney would be a plus if you plan on flying over water, and to the Bahamas. From what I've heard, fuel isn't the cheapest out there, and being able to have enough fuel for there and back might save you a decent amount of bucks.

On the Bo you'll have to plan around the CG, and on the Mooney you'll have to plan around the useful load. The Bo will handle rough airports better, but both will be able to it. Both are fantastic flying machines that fulfill similar missions. Realistically sit in and fly in both. You'll know immediately which one you want after you do that.

Edit: forgot to add, if you decide to look at V tails again, checking the Ruddervators for corrosion is a must. this issue shouldn't scare you away from them, but a bad pair of them should push you away from a V tail. they aren't made anymore so Fixing them is hard, and I've seen replacements priced around 10k.

[Hank]

Hmmm, only 1982 and later Js have split fold down back seats? So does my 1970 C, with factory seats . . .

Go C!!

[Niko182]

Just now, Hank said:

Hmmm, only 1982 and later Js have split fold down back seats? So does my 1970 C, with factory seats . . .

Go C!!

I guess I learn something new everday. From what ive read here, onky the post 82s had them, or they had the factory change older models to the newer style.

[ZuluZulu]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

The F33A will be considerably faster than the 155MPH base cruise speed you have listed. Especially with an IO550. Expect about 170ish knots with the 550, useful load around 1200 to 1300 pounds. The Mid body Mooneys will also all be faster than the 155MPH base you gave. Expect about 143 to 155 knots depending on the type and how much fuel you're willing to give. make sure you test the aircraft's empty weight with the CG with your given mission. Bonanzas don't have the same MPG as the NA Mooneys do, but they are quite spacious as far as the cabin is concerned and are rightfully so faster than the NA mid and short body Mooneys. You are comparing 196hp to about 305 - 315HP. The Mooney is spacious too, but I'd say its a different type of spacious. If sight seeing is a part of it, the visibility in diamonds and high wing cessnas tend to be the best, but there's a trade off for everything. The Mooney has the smallest windows, but I wouldn't say its bad either. I can still always enjoy the view from my plane.

The post 1982ish models have the advantage that you can individually fold one of the 2 backs seats down. If you're taking a dog, this would benefit you greatly. If you go the F33 route, with the amount of luggage you plan on taking, I think the extended baggage door and baggage area mod is a requirement. In the bonanzas, the seats come out of the plane. In the (post 82ish) Mooneys, the seats fold down. Tips on the Bo, and Monroy tanks on the Mooney would be a plus if you plan on flying over water, and to the Bahamas. From what I've heard, fuel isn't the cheapest out there, and being able to have enough fuel for there and back might save you a decent amount of bucks.

On the Bo you'll have to plan around the CG, and on the Mooney you'll have to plan around the useful load. The Bo will handle rough airports better, but both will be able to it. Both are fantastic flying machines that fulfill similar missions. Realistically sit in and fly in both. You'll know immediately which one you want after you do that.

Edit: forgot to add, if you decide to look at V tails again, checking the Ruddervators for corrosion is a must. this issue shouldn't scare you away from them, but a bad pair of them should push you away from a V tail. they aren't made anymore so Fixing them is hard, and I've seen replacements priced around 10k.

It doesn't seem like the Monroys would help him much.  He'd have to leave them empty most of the time with the loads he's talking about.

For the OP: Not all J's have useful loads greater than 950 lb, but almost all the F's do.  At least the ones currently for sale on Controller.  This 1976 F is listed for $79,500, with an advertised useful load of 1048 lb.  Here's another '76 for the same price, useful load of 1004 lb.  Jimmy has this '76 for $69,000, useful load 1003 lb.  The '76 models are only one year before the J, making them very nearly J's.  

Meanwhile, the 201s in your price range have useful loads of 950 lb (1977; $86,900); 970 lb "approximate useful load", whatever that means (1979; $94,000); 993 lb (1981; $83,900); and 907 lb (1981; $89,900).  That '81 with almost 1000 lb to carry looks like a good compromise, but it does not meet your stated preference for at least 500 hours left before TBO.  And for the privilege of having a J to haul less than an F, you're paying nearly $20,000 more.  

Given your preferred budget and load-carrying priority, I would think an F makes the most sense for you.  Use the savings to establish a reserve for maintenance and/or upgrades.  But you might have to compromise your stance on buying a plane younger than you.

Even if you increase your budget for a J, you're very likely giving up some useful load in the exchange.

[Bolter]

2 hours ago, Misiu02 said:

You know I completely forgot about the F33 I will need to look into that thank you.     I will see if I can get a good A&P to talk with me about the Vtail.  Possibly its just a stigma.

I do not know if this also myth/stigma, but I have read and heard that the V-tails tend to have an oscillation in flight that the rear pax will feel.  If this is true, not a good choice for long trips with an already hesitant passenger.  

-dan

[M20F]

5 hours ago, Niko182 said:

The F33A will be considerably faster than the 155MPH base cruise speed you have listed. Especially with an IO550. Expect about 170ish knots with the 550, useful load around 1200 to 1300 pounds. The Mid body Mooneys will also all be faster than the 155MPH base you gave. Expect about 143 to 155 knots depending on the type and how much fuel you're willing to give. make sure you test the aircraft's empty weight with the CG with your given mission. Bonanzas don't have the same MPG as the NA Mooneys do, but they are quite spacious as far as the cabin is concerned and are rightfully so faster than the NA mid and short body Mooneys. You are comparing 196hp to about 305 - 315HP. The Mooney is spacious too, but I'd say its a different type of spacious. If sight seeing is a part of it, the visibility in diamonds and high wing cessnas tend to be the best, but there's a trade off for everything. The Mooney has the smallest windows, but I wouldn't say its bad either. I can still always enjoy the view from my plane.

The post 1982ish models have the advantage that you can individually fold one of the 2 backs seats down. If you're taking a dog, this would benefit you greatly. If you go the F33 route, with the amount of luggage you plan on taking, I think the extended baggage door and baggage area mod is a requirement. In the bonanzas, the seats come out of the plane. In the (post 82ish) Mooneys, the seats fold down. Tips on the Bo, and Monroy tanks on the Mooney would be a plus if you plan on flying over water, and to the Bahamas. From what I've heard, fuel isn't the cheapest out there, and being able to have enough fuel for there and back might save you a decent amount of bucks.

On the Bo you'll have to plan around the CG, and on the Mooney you'll have to plan around the useful load. The Bo will handle rough airports better, but both will be able to it. Both are fantastic flying machines that fulfill similar missions. Realistically sit in and fly in both. You'll know immediately which one you want after you do that.

Edit: forgot to add, if you decide to look at V tails again, checking the Ruddervators for corrosion is a must. this issue shouldn't scare you away from them, but a bad pair of them should push you away from a V tail. they aren't made anymore so Fixing them is hard, and I've seen replacements priced around 10k.

F33 completely out of the listed price range.  For what he wants it is a J or F, I would lean to a well equipped F.  

[Ragsf15e]

Obviously a Mooney would work for your stated mission, however, the only thing that actually matters is family (wife) willingness to fly in it.  You can get a TBM, but if your family won’t get in it, you’ll just have the dog hanging out with you on the beach in the Bahamas.  Which might be nice on occasion but probably defeats your purpose.
 

Get someone with a nice Mooney to fly her on a nice smooth day and see what she says.  You should fly in the backseat and see if that works for your kid(s).  Even at 6’2”, I can sit in the back behind a shortish front seater.  I’d want her to fly in a “mid body” so either an F or a J (or a G).  If she flys in a 2015 Acclaim and loves it, you’ll need to sell your house, so don’t start there with her.  If you get the thumbs up, we can help you spend the $100k on a good one that will meet your stated mission.

[carusoam]

Internet just ate my response... 

Lets go with what Rags just said...

Time to get Wifey on board with this idea first...

Any Mooney is going to be better than the slow boat Cessna or Cirrus when to comes to flying that far...

If she hasn’t been in a plane yet... she will be expecting a very high color screen count...

Don’t be in a rush to show her planes that don’t meet her expectation...

Find an M20J and an M20R... they are both nice enough to not be embarrassing...

Both will meet your mission...

Nothing less inviting that going from digital dashboards in your car... to stepping back into 1970 in a plane...

And no... if your wife is concerned about GA planes... and she has access to the internet... the forked tail doctor killer is not what I would send her to see...

Good luck with your quest... I started in a similar situation... with the most clapped out M20C possible...

Two decades later... we still like our M20R, Ovation... it’s like the M20C, but only more Mooney-ish!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Greg Ellis]

15 hours ago, Misiu02 said:

You know I completely forgot about the F33 I will need to look into that thank you.     I will see if I can get a good A&P to talk with me about the Vtail.  Possibly its just a stigma.

Try talking to @KLRDMD.  He owned a V-Tail for a while and may have some advice for you.

[Misiu02]

10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

If she flys in a 2015 Acclaim and loves it, you’ll need to sell your house, so don’t start there with her

So what your saying is put her in a 1965 cherokee 140 first :-).   

[Misiu02]

14 hours ago, Bolter said:

I do not know if this also myth/stigma, but I have read and heard that the V-tails tend to have an oscillation in flight that the rear pax will feel.  If this is true, not a good choice for long trips with an already hesitant passenger. 

I have to admit that would unnerve me a bit myself and I have been flying in 4 and 6 seaters since I was 4

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Misiu02 said:

So what your saying is put her in a 1965 cherokee 140 first :-).   

 something like that. Actually, you want to carefully think through passenger comfort if they are part of your flying dream. If she wouldn’t be impressed with a 4 hour road trip in a junky 75 toyota corrola, don’t “test fly” her in something similar.  Mooney airplanes fitting your budget and mission will be from 1964ish-1985ish.  Some might be pretty ragged and original.  Some will be absolutely beautiful inside and out.  I wouldn’t start her off in a dilapidated airplane... might be her last flight.

Also think about the weather (smooth) and something fun (sightseeing or lunch?).

If she’s comfortable in a mid body Mooney, your budget will allow you to get a really nice F or an older/not as updated J.

[KLRDMD]

18 hours ago, Misiu02 said:

You know I completely forgot about the F33 I will need to look into that thank you.     I will see if I can get a good A&P to talk with me about the Vtail.  Possibly its just a stigma.

The F33 and the V-Tail are two different airplanes. The 33 series are "traditional" tail where the 35 series are V-Tails. Really, there's almost no difference between them except the V-Tail is a whole lot better looking.

[KLRDMD]

16 hours ago, Bolter said:

I do not know if this also myth/stigma, but I have read and heard that the V-tails tend to have an oscillation in flight that the rear pax will feel.  If this is true, not a good choice for long trips with an already hesitant passenger.  

Just rest your feet on the rudders with minimal pressure and 95% of that goes away. I never had a single passenger ever mention it being an issue.

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Try talking to @KLRDMD.  He owned a V-Tail for a while and may have some advice for you.

They are great airplanes. Plan on an additional 200-300 lb of useful load over a comparable Mooney and 500% better visibility. The Mooney feels a bit like a tank when looking out the windows after flying a Bonanza that feels more like a convertible. The difference is amazing.

Look at empty CG for any 33 or 35 series Bonanza. I wouldn't look at one over 80. Mine was 77.8 which is perfect. If you get an empty CG low enough (below 78.5 or so) loading out the back of the W&B envelope is not an issue; all of your useful load is truly useable. The large baggage door is a very important consideration with the extended baggage less important, at least for me.

At 8,000 ft I saw 167-172 KTAS on 12.5 GPH in cruise. That was 65% power, LOP. My highest CHT was +/- 320º. The Bonanza beats the Mooney in ground handling, flight handling and landing. Nothing feels like a Bonanza in flight.

The Mooney wins in efficiency and for J and earlier models, engine longevity and reliability (although I had zero issues with my Continental IO-520 with 2,100 SMOH on a 1,700 TBO). You can slow a Bonanza down to Mooney speeds (J and earlier) and get close to but not quite the efficiency.

My previous S35 Bonanza is currently listed for sale: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=188371

[Misiu02]

21 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

something like that. Actually, you want to carefully think through passenger comfort if they are part of your flying dream. If she wouldn’t be impressed with a 4 hour road trip in a junky 75 toyota corrola, don’t “test fly” her in something similar.

I have some friends with some very nice aircraft we will be doing test and learns in with her.    It might set the bar a bit to high as they are all fully glassed cockpits and I am one of the weird people that prefer analog gauges vs fully glass cockpits.    The only digital systems I like is the GPS and a quality engine management system. 

[gsxrpilot]

I had an F33A for awhile and loading was always tricky. The CG moves as you burn off fuel. So you really have to make sure you'll still be within the CG at the end of a flight. I found it really limited my range. So one of the things I really appreciated about the Mooney is that all I really had to do was worry about the total weight. It's always with CG no matter what I do.

[Misiu02]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

I had an F33A for awhile and loading was always tricky. The CG moves as you burn off fuel. So you really have to make sure you'll still be within the CG at the end of a flight. I found it really limited my range. So one of the things I really appreciated about the Mooney is that all I really had to do was worry about the total weight. It's always with CG no matter what I do.

That is a great point thank you.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

I had an F33A for awhile and loading was always tricky. The CG moves as you burn off fuel. So you really have to make sure you'll still be within the CG at the end of a flight. I found it really limited my range. So one of the things I really appreciated about the Mooney is that all I really had to do was worry about the total weight. It's always with CG no matter what I do.

There's an app for that. It is free too. Look up "Bonanza Performance". Plug in your numbers and it provides takeoff and landing weights and CGs. Find a Bonanza with a good empty CG and it won't be an issue. My guess is Paul's empty CG was 80 or more. Many are which leads to the false assumption that this is an issue for all Bonanzas. It isn't.