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Aerocruze 230 Autopilot install


Lake Aero

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It took me little over 25hrs for the first install.

25 hours???


Geezus That seems like a long time.

What needed rewiring? Aren’t all the HSI and GPS pickups already there? Rs232 interfaces? Curious. Stec is usually 2-3 wires or 6, kfc to HSI has the seven split connections - how much more work is there to do?


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13 hours ago, glbtrottr said:


25 hours???


Geezus That seems like a long time.

What needed rewiring? Aren’t all the HSI and GPS pickups already there? Rs232 interfaces? Curious. Stec is usually 2-3 wires or 6, kfc to HSI has the seven split connections - how much more work is there to do?


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25 hours is basically three 8 hour days. To re-pin those connectors and verify that all of it works and spend time talking to BK , verifying servos, etc, etc, doesn't seem like a lot of time when it's the first one you've done. It think it's amazing to get it done for roughly $2500- $3000.

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2 hours ago, glbtrottr said:

But my question was...what needed re-pinning?  Isn't it a slide-in like replacement?  Were there additional pins? 

It is not plug-n-play. It depends on the Avionics configuration you have. It does take additional wiring for flight director, GPS, ADAHRS, etc. 

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When you look at how integrated an old BK AP is...

There is a family of parts that needs to be installed...

1) Controller

2) AI, or other gyro...

3) three or four servos...

4) Mechanical mounts...

5) Nav equipment/HSI...

6) Wiring... of each device including a sensor to the static system... or a tube...

7) Done in three days re-using stuff that is 20years old... 

Kind of amazing really...

Really helps to know the insides of the Mooney to do all of this...

But, to make sure Lake Aero doesn’t think I’m a Rockefeller...  25 hours! That unreal.... :)

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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It's a shame - if there was a selling point of the BK Aerocruze 230 over the other new autopilots options it was that it might be a cheaper/simpler install since it would use the old servos and seemed as if it might be closer to plug an play.  Now it seems the cost will approach very closely the cost of a GFC500 all in installed all parts needed, but with the later you get new digital brushless servos, better functions too.

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It's a shame - if there was a selling point of the BK Aerocruze 230 over the other new autopilots options it was that it might be a cheaper/simpler install since it would use the old servos and seemed as if it might be closer to plug an play.  Now it seems the cost will approach very closely the cost of a GFC500 all in installed all parts needed, but with the later you get new digital brushless servos, better functions too.

 That was my thought. Much as Avidyne was able to use the same tray for a practical “plug and play” upgrade from the 430, a great selling point would be to have a slide in, plug and play installation. No altitude preselect? No problem! Part of the aerocruze 230. Just a piece of software...moreover, when a GPS is installed onto a KCS55a, there are 8 wires duplexed as part of the install as things are connected (main CDI, Lat +vert), along with 7 connections to P1 and P2 that have already been made (U, 17, B, 21, Y, B, 19).

 

WAAS upgrades were a very nice boon for the industry. Two to three D-Sub wires to add position to a device and BOOM, you’re done.

 

So my question, academically is...what is the actual difference in install in a same-same, all Bendix King, typically KCS55a/KI256/KFc150 install?

 

 

 

When you look at how integrated an old BK AP is... There is a family of parts that needs to be installed... 1) Controller. SLIDE SWAP

2) AI, or other gyro... (ALREADY THERE- you don’t get to double dip on installing the upgrades and charging for the autopilot, ethically)

3) three or four servos... (ALREADY THERE)

4) Mechanical mounts...(ALREADY THERE)

5) Nav equipment/HSI... (ALREADY THERE)

6) Wiring... of each device including a sensor to the static system... or a tube...(again, ALREADY THERE)

 

7) Done in three days re-using stuff that is 20years old... ?????

Kind of amazing really...

Really helps to know the insides of the Mooney to do all of this...

But, to make sure Lake Aero doesn’t think I’m a Rockefeller...  25 hours! That unreal.... 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

 If all you’re doing is “replacing a dead KFC150”, which a number of pilots have unfortunately experienced, what else is there to do?

 

When people upgraded from a KAP150 to a KFC150 by adding a KI256, the computer had different modules (I forget how many). Why wouldn’t an aerocruze 230 be able to simply be plug and play as is? I keep trying to understand the additional work beyond doing the autopilot /servo test.

 

If the value add is minimizing or eliminating additional work, what keeps it from being a slide-in replacement, save for helping sell services or garmin upgrades?

 

As the previous poster stated, with $9800 base price plus install, why bother and not simply go with a GFC? Because the market is conditioned to anchoring the price to that of Garmin, without the Garmin features, plus the cost of a “minimal” week of install?

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Plug ‘n’ play would be a huge advantage... a few AMUs saved.

BK originally touted the possibility of doing it this way...

Waiting for somebody to have actual success doing it this way will be interesting...


How does an avionics shop go the Plug n play route, and send a customer on their way?

 

Somebody posted a great video today of a before and after swapping out the old AI/HSI for digital devices....

If you connect a new AP to these same old AI/HSI... the results would not be nearly as impressive...

I’m a bit skeptical to how worn out my existing system actually is...

Getting a new controller would be great, but it may come with a few OHs of the servos either immediately, or somewhere down the road....

A lot of dough spent, with an option to spend a lot more dough to keep it flying right...  OHing BK servos is in the AMU category...

 

Pp thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

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3 hours ago, glbtrottr said:

 If all you’re doing is “replacing a dead KFC150”, which a number of pilots have unfortunately experienced, what else is there to do?

Bendix king mentions that it's the same form factor as the KFC150, not that it's plug and play or slide-in. It takes a different tray and different connectors so the entire center stack has to come out to rivet in a new tray. The wiring to the new connectors has to be done,  digital data bus has to be wired in, the configurations have to be done, the servos have to be removed from the airplane and bench tested, I'm guessing that it has to be re-aligned to whatever attitude source you're using, there's paperwork, after installation check. Bendix King says that this installation cuts an autopilot install from three weeks down to one week. He did it in 25 hours - Bravo!

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9 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

It's a shame - if there was a selling point of the BK Aerocruze 230 over the other new autopilots options it was that it might be a cheaper/simpler install since it would use the old servos and seemed as if it might be closer to plug an play.  Now it seems the cost will approach very closely the cost of a GFC500 all in installed all parts needed, but with the later you get new digital brushless servos, better functions too.

As much as I hate to write it, with a Garmin product you're buying from a company that has a decent track record of getting working products to market. I despise monopolistic practices as much as the next guy and will chose the competition if a product is comparable (hi, Dynon) but King haven't exactly been the definition of fair market practices or reasonable pricing, not to mention the KI300 fiasco...

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Bendix king mentions that it's the same form factor as the KFC150, not that it's plug and play or slide-in. It takes a different tray and different connectors so the entire center stack has to come out to rivet in a new tray. The wiring to the new connectors has to be done,  digital data bus has to be wired in, the configurations have to be done, the servos have to be removed from the airplane and bench tested, I'm guessing that it has to be re-aligned to whatever attitude source you're using, there's paperwork, after installation check. Bendix King says that this installation cuts an autopilot install from three weeks down to one week. He did it in 25 hours - Bravo!

Gotcha. That helps.

Between the mediocre support from King, the exorbitant pricing, the lack of thinking process in cost reduction, the history with the KI300 as another poster stated, the historically stuffy attitude towards GA, and inferior market delivery, generally substandard features, I don’t see them as a serious player anymore. How old is the KX155/165 series? The KAP/KFC was built what, nearly 40 years ago? You would think innovation even in aviation has a faster pace.

In my kitchen table I have an Aera 510, a 560, and a Zumo. Same exact case, form factor, battery, display and all- just slightly different presentation and wholly different pricing models. Garmin loooooves the small feature hardware upgrade. Their quality has improved lots but their lackluster support of things like the apollo/upsat purchase left me sour along with their monopolistic practices. Between their lobbying for and winning an ADSB political mandate which I consider to be wholly unnecessary, to how they price their hardware, I am definitely not a Garmin fanboy and cheer for Dynon, Aspen, Navworks, Uavionix, avidyne and even L3 with their NGT every chance I get. Bendix king making an acquisition of Trutrak was good for the trutrak owners and investors crowd, but in my opinion a half hearted, impotent, insincere and lackluster attempt at remaining in General Aviation if this is all they’ve got.

Av8or? The KMD series? How much innovation has come out since the 89b, KLN94 etc? Even the Aerocruze was an acquisition by taking someone out of the nascent new autopilot market and making them part of corporate Bendix. If it wasn’t for OEM deals they would not exist today, I believe. Unimpressive. Aeropanel! Aeropower! Aerovue! Seriously, if all I want is rebranded product, I’ll just go to PS engineering directly and call it a day. OEM deals generally suck.

Their former employees at Garmin continue to eat their lunch- to have a former employee build a $4Bn empire just shows the size of the market and opportunities missed.
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1 hour ago, glbtrottr said:



Av8or? The KMD series? How much innovation has come out since the 89b, KLN94 etc? Even the Aerocruze was an acquisition by taking someone out of the nascent new autopilot market and making them part of corporate Bendix. If it wasn’t for OEM deals they would not exist today, I believe. Unimpressive. Aeropanel! Aeropower! Aerovue! Seriously, if all I want is rebranded product, I’ll just go to PS engineering directly and call it a day. OEM deals generally suck.
 

The Aerocruze 230 comes from Bendix King long before they bought TruTrak. They renamed the TruTrak Vizion line of products the Aerocruze 100 after they purchased TruTrak.

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Whatever good will BK had for the fact that many/most of us have excellent best of the tech as of ~circa 1980 BK products in our airplanes, they have dumped the confidence and product loyalty we might have carried with a recent practice of bad products, eg the KI300, bad marketing, eg ridiculously long vaporware periods, but for me, most of all, bad faith of absurd product support that include predatory parts pricing (e.g. the 2500 trim switch and other, or e.g. the attempted monopoly move of putting all the 3rd market supporters like autopilots central out of business so they could "provide" their own very inferior repairs at crazy spriraling prices).  That this aerocruze 230 turns out to be not the drop in that they suggested, not even close, and that it would be as expensive as the other most expensive alternative (gfc500) or more expensive than alternatives (e.g. dynon), just confirms my already low opinion of the company.  Just based on that expense issue I see no viable reason for someone in my position to consider it.  Perhaps someone with a BK autopilot and perhaps an aspen it makes some sense?

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  • 1 month later...
19 hours ago, PT20J said:

Currious if anyone has installed an Aerocruz yet.

I confirmed today with BK that there is no target date for expanding the STC to include the KAP150.

Skip

I read about someone/somewhere having one installed....it might have been on beechtalk?  Everybody was pretty incredulous.

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The usual method of getting new BK devices installed in planes...

1) BK sellers had to buy one...

2) It sits on a shelf aging for a while...

3) the next step is often unclear... but, once aged appropriately (like fine wine) ... it gets installed in a plane... but, even free electronics have large install costs...

4) Fortunately, trutrak was known to make good equipment... hmmmm.... so was BK. Back in the day...

5) Ever see that BK GPS/nav/com that got installed once?

PP exaggeration only, there may be a few of those devices installed somewhere...

Best regards,

-a-

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On 11/9/2020 at 1:44 PM, kortopates said:

The AeroCruz 230 replaces the KFC-150 computer theoretically the same way the Avidyne IFDs replaces the GNS GPS - at least for starts. They were working on direct digital interface integrations to some systems including my G500, so perhaps Aspen as well, but you'd have to check on status. But as you well know, even the Aspen AP interface adapter never had more than the basic capabilities.

I lost interest for the moment when their engineering folks told me that they have no plans whatsoever to design and manufacture a new modern servo replacements. In fact, if you want to add the yaw dampener you have to scavenge for all the old used parts.  I just can't get excited about a new 230 computer that will for always be dependent on the old servo's with very limited parts availability. After all, all my past AP issues have for the most part been servo issues, never computer issues. I presume they can make good on their warranty of old servo's for the immediate future but I don't see how they can possibly do so post warranty period - at least not affordably.

Ask what those servos cost to overhaul. We had a KFC150 trim servo repaired and it was 1500$.   Overhaul was several grand.  

Edited by jetdriven
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