RCBass Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Hello all, this is my first post on here, and kind of a hail mary. I recently bought a Mooney M20F with a turbo normalizer, and I'm already kind of off to a tough start. Briefly... during the pre-buy it was discovered one of the engine mounts needed repair. In order to repair it the turbo had to be removed to get to it. The turbo was reinstalled after the repair and hasn't worked since. (yes, it definitely worked before, we played with it the day we flew it in for the pre-buy) This is a very reputable and well known Mooney service center that has worked on this for 2 months now, and now has said they don't know what else to do, given up, and told me to come get it. The engine and turbo are both newly overhauled with about 40 hrs. They even removed the turbo, sent it back to where it was overhauled to be checked, got it back and reinstalled it, and it still doesn't work. I'm thinking it has to be something else other than the turbo. Has anyone else had this experience with a Rajay and found some subtle obscure thing that was the cause of it? I'm trying not to panic here, but... this shop, I mean, if they couldn't figure this out, I'm seriously wondering who can. And, I paid way too much to own normally aspirated F model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Looks like your third post, RCB... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Let’s stay focussed.... breathe..... What problem are you seeing..? What do you know..? What do you not know..? Once you get some thoughts together... it’s possible the RayJay guy can be found... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted October 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 I meant the first time I've posted a question to the group. Very helpful, thanks. Hadn't thought of that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 It must be the wastegate. Is it opening and closing when you move the cable? Does it have a pop off valve? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prior owner Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 I’m curious as to whether the normally aspirated performance at sea level also changed? Is the only performance issue that the turbo is not producing/not indicating boost at altitude? Takeoff performance is normal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 6 hours ago, RCBass said: and hasn't worked since. Can you explain? That statement doesn't tell us anything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Is it a manual TN’er setup or automatic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 Either the cable isn't closing the waste gate, and the turbo isn't spooling up, or there is a massive air leak, post-turbo, and the air it is making is being lost. This is the most simple turbo arrangement there is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 14 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: It must be the wastegate. Is it opening and closing when you move the cable? Does it have a pop off valve? I'm not sure about the pop off valve, I'll have to ask. I haven't actually gotten to fly the plane yet. It's still at the shop that did the pre-buy. I know the cable is moving, but whether it is rigged for proper movement of the wastegate is a question I will ask them on Monday. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 12 hours ago, MIm20c said: Is it a manual TN’er setup or automatic? Manual.. there is a second "throttle" to engage the turbo. You can use it or not use it. Without it it is just a stock normally aspirated M20F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Can you explain? That statement doesn't tell us anything. In flight when the turbo normalizer is engaged with the second "throttle", the manifold pressure doesn't respond. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 13 hours ago, PilotCoyote said: I’m curious as to whether the normally aspirated performance at sea level also changed? Is the only performance issue that the turbo is not producing/not indicating boost at altitude? Takeoff performance is normal? ??? It hasn't changed. It flies normally like a normally aspirated M20F without the turbo. When you engage the turbo normalizer in flight the MP doesn't respond. I'm only talking about the turbo being inop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 It is a very simple system so either the wastegate isn’t closing (cable) or the hoses from the turbo are leaking air. Check that all the hoses are connected. There is a very short one that comes out the alternate air box, it comes off when you drop the lower cowl. The greatest Mooney mechanic ever didn’t affix mine right one annual. If one of these hoses is leaking in full or part the the air the turbo pushes is going to leak out. It doesn’t take much of a leak to make it not work. The “second” throttle you push also needs to be shoved in almost entirely to start working. Very slowly push it in and eventually you will see manifold jump up. It is very easy to overboost it, be very slow and I would probably want to be at around 23” full throttle before you tried (you will probably see it jump to 26-27). Once the turbo activated then you twist the turbo controller up/down (like prop RPM) to add power back. Again it takes maybe 1/4 turn to add an inch and it lags. Twist 1/4 inch and a couple seconds later the manifold goes up. Be very gentle/slow till you figure out the responsiveness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_D Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 14 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Can you explain? That statement doesn't tell us anything. I will elaborate since I used to own the plane in question and have flown it both before the pre-buy and repair work was started and afterwards . The pre-buy uncovered a crack on the engine mount. The associated repair involved removing the turbo to get to the spot on the mount. Again, the turbo was developing boost during a test flight before the pre-buy and during delivery for the pre-buy. After everything was reinstalled, the turbo no longer produced any boost whatsoever, both on the ground and in the air. The wastegate rigging was checked and the entire system was checked for air leaks. A couple of leaks were found and repaired in the process. The turbo and the engine had been recently overhauled (<~40 hours). The turbo was sent to RayJay to be checked and was returned with no problems found. This process started almost 2 months ago. I can certainly understand Russell's frustration! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Greg_D said: I will elaborate since I used to own the plane in question and have flown it both before the pre-buy and repair work was started and afterwards . The pre-buy uncovered a crack on the engine mount. The associated repair involved removing the turbo to get to the spot on the mount. Again, the turbo was developing boost during a test flight before the pre-buy and during delivery for the pre-buy. After everything was reinstalled, the turbo no longer produced any boost whatsoever, both on the ground and in the air. The wastegate rigging was checked and the entire system was checked for air leaks. A couple of leaks were found and repaired in the process. The turbo and the engine had been recently overhauled (<~40 hours). The turbo was sent to RayJay to be checked and was returned with no problems found. This process started almost 2 months ago. I can certainly understand Russell's frustration! I would check the exhaust was put on correctly if it was removed. It is literally the simplest turbo in the world. I would also check the hose that goes from the alternate air on the cowl to the air box. If that isn’t on perfectly it just blows the air out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 I guess I just can’t understand how a well know MSC cannot figure out a simple system like this. It’s been used for decades on multiple types of aircraft. After TWO months did they at least pressure test the system, carefully adjust the waste gate, and closely inspect the flap that closes off the incoming NA air? @RCBass do you have the paperwork on the TN system? Should have install and troubleshooting documents that will allow you or a mechanic to go through every piece of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 2 hours ago, MIm20c said: I guess I just can’t understand how a well know MSC cannot figure out a simple system like this. This same post is running over on the Mooney Pilots Facebook page. Over there, JD from SWTA details how he fought with a RayJay turbo on an M20C for a year before finally solving an excess oil consumption issue. Evidently they're "simple" until they're not. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 4 hours ago, MIm20c said: I guess I just can’t understand how a well know MSC cannot figure out a simple system like this. It’s been used for decades on multiple types of aircraft. After TWO months did they at least pressure test the system, carefully adjust the waste gate, and closely inspect the flap that closes off the incoming NA air? @RCBass do you have the paperwork on the TN system? Should have install and troubleshooting documents that will allow you or a mechanic to go through every piece of the system. I haven't even seen the plane since taking it for the prebuy. I've owned since Aug. 20th and have yet to even be able to fly it. It with a very experienced shop, I would be stunned if the were not aware of it. Thanks though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 4 hours ago, M20F said: I would check the exhaust was put on correctly if it was removed. It is literally the simplest turbo in the world. I would also check the hose that goes from the alternate air on the cowl to the air box. If that isn’t on perfectly it just blows the air out. Thank you, I will ask him that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: This same post is running over on the Mooney Pilots Facebook page. Over there, JD from SWTA details how he fought with a RayJay turbo on an M20C for a year before finally solving an excess oil consumption issue. Evidently they're "simple" until they're not. I’m not going to agree with this. Pull in a A* with a slight pressurization leak or turbo that’s not fully coming up to steam and I’d understand a few weeks of diagnostics. 4 turbos, 4 automatic waste gates, pressure controllers, etc could be very difficult to find a problem. We are talking about a veneer adjustment directly attached to the exhaust where you can see clear as day if it’s directing exhaust to the turbo or not. If the turbo is fine there is a leak somewhere upstream or downstream. Not rocket science imo...we are talking about it not working at all. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCBass Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, MIm20c said: I’m not going to agree with this. Pull in a A* with a slight pressurization leak or turbo that’s not fully coming up to steam and I’d understand a few weeks of diagnostics. 4 turbos, 4 automatic waste gates, pressure controllers, etc could be very difficult to find a problem. We are talking about a veneer adjustment directly attached to the exhaust where you can see clear as day if it’s directing exhaust to the turbo or not. If the turbo is fine there is a leak somewhere upstream or downstream. Not rocket science imo...we are talking about it not working at all. You wouldn't think. Even the service center owner, who believe me is very knowledgeable, said almost exactly what you just said. Yet, he is stumped. Thanks for your comment. I hope to talk to him tomorrow with some of the findings over the weekend. Hopefully he doesn't tell me he did all that. ha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 Our RayJay guy is @tomgo2... How many weeks is the PPI going on now? At what point do you just let it go, and look for a plane that is working properly? Tough spot to be in... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 @carusoamit seems as though he already owns this aircraft 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Oops my bad... Hard to remember that much detail... 0) PPI done at an MSC... 1) PPI found motor mounts needed... 2) Installing motor mounts required removal of exhaust system... 3) Putting things back together, didn’t work so well... 4) Turbo doesn’t work... (what doesn’t work about it, does it spin when you manually touch it?) 5) Plane is still at the MSC... two months later... 6) Engine OH is 40hrs old... (who did the OH, when) 7) Turbo OH is 40hrs old... (who did the OH, when) 8) The MSC can’t tell what is not working (this needs more detail, an MSC should be able to say what’s wrong...) 9) Turbo has since been sent out again, deemed healthy, re-installed... still doesn’t work... 10) MSC gives up on it... (this makes no sense whatsoever for any business...) 11) MSers have reviewed the usual operations and control... 12) The turbo was working before the PPI started... (would help to define MP and altitude observed while in flight) 13) Things that make RayJays work.... knob that is connected to cable... activate the knob, closes the waste gate and directs exhaust pressure to the drive side of the turbo... Nothing has been mentioned regarding the exhaust going to the right place... If the exhaust is going to the right place... temp of the RayJay rises... significantly... measure the temps to find out what is warming up... and what isn’t. if the valve isn’t closing, get it OH’d, or cleaned, or lubricated... 14) There isn’t much to figure out, as in the number of parts that could fail is minimal... 15) The only thing left is the oil system related to the turbo... oil lines, and scavenger pump... how black and chunky are the oil bits in the line? 16) If you own it... focus on what is not working and how to get it fixed... 17) Spend some time writing what you know... and what you don’t know... 18) Fill in the data of what company did what for you... this helps with understanding what work was actually done. What’s the worst that can happen..? Stay focussed... because flying with an exhaust system with an un-known condition is really a tough spot to be in... In case you can’t tell from my writing style... this was meant to be helpful... even when it doesn’t sound that well... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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