kerry Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/244479 I don't have my multi engine so it's difficult for me to 2nd guess. I'm sure they're a few on mooneyspace that have their multi rating. The details keep going over in my head from this fatal accident from yesterday. Witnesses on the ground said the plane was level then the wing dropped and made an abrupt drop into the ground. The pilot was on one engine and was told by Las Vegas Approach to stay out of the Bravo Airspace. I'm sure flying a twin on one engine and told to stay out of Bravo makes a busy cockpit. I wished the pilot would have declared an emergency and landed at Las Vegas McCarran rather than trying to make it to KHND. Maybe those with multi engine experience can give me their thoughts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 I just flew one from Phoenix to Pittsburgh and back last week. I did my flight review in it right before I left. It flys better than most on one engine. At 8000 feet I could get about 400 ft/min climb out of it. I wonder why he didn’t ask to land at McCarren? The examiner who gave my ATP check ride insisted that you never pass a good runway with an engine out. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) It would appear that whatever trouble he had he realized shortly after takeoff since he immediately asked to change his destination to Henderson with the approach controller. I can't imagine a lot of other reasons to change your destination immediately on takeoff other than some mechanical anomaly. No one can know for sure, but it's clear that KLAS would have been a much better option and maybe even a turn back to VGT. The other thought that crosses my mind is that somehow fuel level was overlooked prior to takeoff. I don't have a multi, but if you were running dangerously low on fuel would there ever be a last ditch effort to shut down one engine (or maybe it just quit on its own if the tanks don't cross feed)? He had flown from San Diego the day prior and this may have been his return flight. If you took off and all of a sudden realized you were low (I know it sounds crazy, but crazier things have happened in GA), KHND would be directly on your route home (and it's $8 gallon at KLAS). The phrase "we have to shut down one engine" is also interesting to me since it doesn't exactly show that the pilot thought this was an emergency. Edited October 31, 2020 by Davidv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Davidv said: It would appear that whatever trouble he had he realized shortly after takeoff since he immediately asked to change his destination to Henderson with the approach controller. I can't imagine a lot of other reasons to change your destination immediately on takeoff other than some mechanical anomaly. No one can know for sure, but it's clear that KLAS would have been a much better option and maybe even a turn back to VGT. The other thought that crosses my mind is that somehow fuel level was overlooked prior to takeoff. I don't have a multi, but if you were running dangerously low on fuel would there ever be a last ditch effort to shut down one engine (or maybe it just quit on its own if the tanks don't cross feed)? He had flown from San Diego the day prior and this may have been his return flight. If you took off and all of a sudden realized you were low (I know it sounds crazy, but crazier things have happened in GA), KHND would be directly on your route home (and it's $8 gallon at KLAS). The phrase "we have to shut down one engine" is also interesting to me since it doesn't exactly show that the pilot thought this was an emergency. The 310R has 4 or 6 tanks. Each engine can feed from 3 or 4 of them. You should be able to Find some fuel somewhere. I just watched the news story and the plane was engulfed in a huge fireball, so it wasn’t fuel starvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Interestingly the tail number sounded familiar. I believe this may be the 310r that was in for some maintenance at KMYF just a couple days ago. If it’s the same plane that I’m thinking of it was a beautiful and apparently well maintained 310. I had to stop and walk around it because I don’t see to many well kept and updated twins. RIP for those involved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said: Interestingly the tail number sounded familiar. I believe this may be the 310r that was in for some maintenance at KMYF just a couple days ago. If it’s the same plane that I’m thinking of it was a beautiful and apparently well maintained 310. I had to stop and walk around it because I don’t see to many well kept and updated twins. RIP for those involved! It belonged to Air Charter Express Robert Golo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 I've no idea why somebody talking to ATC would not immediately inform them of a failed engine and declare an emergency, or at least pan. Low and slow in a twin with one engine is risky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Really sad! Looks like they where in control and slowly loosing altitude then crashed into the only structure in the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said: Really sad! Looks like they where in control and slowly loosing altitude then crashed into the only structure in the area. Wow, yes very sad. Also doesn’t look like a fuel related issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) The propeller appears to be windmilling not feathered in the video. Clarence Edited October 31, 2020 by M20Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 No gear, no flaps, windmilling prop, a fair amount of power coming from the good engine, but didn't sound like full throttle. Looks like there were a lot of things not going right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Those engines scream like a banshee at max RPM, it doesn't sound like he was at full RPM. And as M20DOC said, the right engine was not feathered. Sad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Is that what a twin on autopilot would look like as one engine ran out of fuel while in cruise..? That’s a lot of signs that the P was no longer IC... PP-ASEL thoughts only, prayers for the lost airman... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry Posted November 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 Here's a video just before it crashed. RIP https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/friend-shares-about-pilot-killed-in-south-valley-plane-crash/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 12 hours ago, kmyfm20s said: Interestingly the tail number sounded familiar. I believe this may be the 310r that was in for some maintenance at KMYF just a couple days ago. If it’s the same plane that I’m thinking of it was a beautiful and apparently well maintained 310. I had to stop and walk around it because I don’t see to many well kept and updated twins. RIP for those involved! After to talking to the mechanic this was not the plane I was admiring at the shop. It is a plane I have seen tied down on the field and why I recognized the tail number. Still sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 A cursory review of the latest video posted by Kerry... Something visibly changes... at the moment prior to the plane falling... the security video is at a pretty far distance, and not really easy to see much detail... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 I noticed a flash almost as if it hit a wire but to grainy to see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 1, 2020 Report Share Posted November 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said: I noticed a flash almost as if it hit a wire but to grainy to see. That's what I thought as well, that it looked like maybe they hit a power line or wire of some kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Ellis Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 If you look closely at the video in the feed above it is the left engine that is stopped and feathered. Look really close multiple times and you will see the prop is not moving. If you pause it and play and pause and play you will see that the right propeller changes position but the propeller tip paint (white paint) on the left propeller never changes position. The right engine is the one still producing power but looks like it is wind-milling because of the camera shutter speeds, kind of like when you see video of airplanes starting up on the ground and it looks like the prop is not spinning. So, if this is the case then he lost the critical engine!!! Very important information. Loss of the critical engine can make it far more difficult to control due to the P factor, etc... from the right engine and the propeller producing a line of thrust further away from the centerline of the airplane. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Greg Ellis said: If you look closely at the video in the feed above it is the left engine that is stopped and feathered. Look really close multiple times and you will see the prop is not moving. If you pause it and play and pause and play you will see that the right propeller changes position but the propeller tip paint (white paint) on the left propeller never changes position. The right engine is the one still producing power but looks like it is wind-milling because of the camera shutter speeds, kind of like when you see video of airplanes starting up on the ground and it looks like the prop is not spinning. So, if this is the case then he lost the critical engine!!! Very important information. Loss of the critical engine can make it far more difficult to control due to the P factor, etc... from the right engine and the propeller producing a line of thrust further away from the centerline of the airplane. Looking at it again, you're right. The left propeller is feathered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 12:28 PM, EricJ said: I've no idea why somebody talking to ATC would not immediately inform them of a failed engine and declare an emergency, or at least pan. Low and slow in a twin with one engine is risky. It continues to amaze me why people don't declare emergencies when it is warranted. It is an absolute freebie that gains you so very much. If you think you don't want to get the attention of the FAA, guess what? In the age of cell phones every one and every thing sees you. (Which is why you no longer hear about alien abductions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 What I could see in the video looked to my inexpert eye like a VMC rollover. Having the critical engine out certainly suggests it. As for declaring an emergency, no one in any tower could do anything about it. Had to keep the shiny side up. RIP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1001001 Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, steingar said: What I could see in the video looked to my inexpert eye like a VMC rollover. Having the critical engine out certainly suggests it. As for declaring an emergency, no one in any tower could do anything about it. Had to keep the shiny side up. RIP. No one on the ground can fly the airplane, true, but the reason for declaring an emergency is that once you do, you own the airspace, and they start clearing things out of your way. Your options for landing increase especially if you're being told to keep out of a Bravo. Nope, just declared an emergency, I'm coming in and landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gagarin Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 It appears that the pilot tried to arrest the descent by pitching up. This causes the plane to slow down and loose controllability to keep the wings level. An engine failure probability on a twin is twice that of a single. To make things worse engine failures are most probable during high stress situations like on take off and climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 4 hours ago, steingar said: What I could see in the video looked to my inexpert eye like a VMC rollover. Having the critical engine out certainly suggests it. As for declaring an emergency, no one in any tower could do anything about it. Had to keep the shiny side up. RIP. Disagree. A controller can declare an emergency for you. It helps him as much as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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