jasong Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 GM was once a independant company it Died at the hand of UNION selfishness. Now they are Government Motors. A socialist amalgamation of the current administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnggreen Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 OK fellows, let's all take a deep breath here. I'm going to point out a few truths upon which all sides will be able to agree. Let's kick unions for a minute. After WWII, the USA was virtually the only truly developed manufacturing country in the world that was not blown to smitherins and had actually (at least from the standpoint of manufacturing capactiy) benefited from the war. Unions were at their peak; from the ship yards to the teamsters, they were big, powerful and wide spread. Now, the bad part. From that point on, virtualy every industry that was under the fist of powerful unions ceased to exist in the United States of America; ship building and steel to name a couple of behemouth industries. Did union wages do this or did unions do this? There is a difference. I would submit that the number one negative was not the wages, it was the inability of companies to make absolutely necessary changes as technology and circumstances changed due to the over-protection labor gave to existing jobs. Now, I could belabor this and I could further explain this, but instead, since I believe I am addressing educated, intelligent people, look to the auto industry and its mistakes. Then look to the foreign auto companies who were able to come into the US and prosper (Toyota, Nissan, BMW, VW etc.) They paid wages and benefits nearly comparable to the union dominated US companies, but they were not ham strung with the work rules and the burden of having component manufacturing plants that were union controlled from top to bottom. If anybody got mad, everybody got mad and the whole operation got shut down. The comparison of the failure of US auto companies and the success of foreign auto companies is quite an education in what does and does not work. Now as to the US losing jobs overseas due to lower wages; let me give you a factual example. Here, in Grenada, MS, we have three large A/C related manufacturing plants. One was run for a long time by a close friend. We were discussing this issue once and I asked him (thinking that I knew the answer) what percentage of cost of goods produced in his plant was labor; IT WAS 10%. TEN PERCENT !!! So then, I asked him why they built their last plant in Mexico? If their labor was half hours, we are talking 5%. I knew what was coming. He said the savings came not really from wages, it was the cost of doing business in America. He said that, for example, his company, on a nationwide basis, spent more on legal fees than wages. Anyone who runs a small business, and I do, knows exactly what I'm talking about. For instance. The EPA has come out with new regulations that are now being enforced by the state that any plat of land (that's my business. land development and commercial property management) over one acre that is to be disturbed by land clearing/filling/cut must have a storm water run off plan with remedial drainage control According to the EPA this will only ONLY add about 10 to 15% to the project. Not the dirt project, my friends, to the whole damn project. I love union wages. I like those high paid folks spending money in my shopping centers and at my theater. We might be able to pay those wages if it weren't for the damn government. God bless us all. At least we will all be unemployed together. Jgreen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Quote: jasong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Quote: johnggreen OK fellows, let's all take a deep breath here. I'm going to point out a few truths upon which all sides will be able to agree. Let's kick unions for a minute. After WWII, the USA was virtually the only truly developed manufacturing country in the world that was not blown to smitherins and had actually (at least from the standpoint of manufacturing capactiy) benefited from the war. Unions were at their peak; from the ship yards to the teamsters, they were big, powerful and wide spread. Now, the bad part. From that point on, virtualy every industry that was under the fist of powerful unions ceased to exist in the United States of America; ship building and steel to name a couple of behemouth industries. Did union wages do this or did unions do this? There is a difference. I would submit that the number one negative was not the wages, it was the inability of companies to make absolutely necessary changes as technology and circumstances changed due to the over-protection labor gave to existing jobs. Now, I could belabor this and I could further explain this, but instead, since I believe I am addressing educated, intelligent people, look to the auto industry and its mistakes. Then look to the foreign auto companies who were able to come into the US and prosper (Toyota, Nissan, BMW, VW etc.) They paid wages and benefits nearly comparable to the union dominated US companies, but they were not ham strung with the work rules and the burden of having component manufacturing plants that were union controlled from top to bottom. If anybody got mad, everybody got mad and the whole operation got shut down. The comparison of the failure of US auto companies and the success of foreign auto companies is quite an education in what does and does not work. Now as to the US losing jobs overseas due to lower wages; let me give you a factual example. Here, in Grenada, MS, we have three large A/C related manufacturing plants. One was run for a long time by a close friend. We were discussing this issue once and I asked him (thinking that I knew the answer) what percentage of cost of goods produced in his plant was labor; IT WAS 10%. TEN PERCENT !!! So then, I asked him why they built their last plant in Mexico? If their labor was half hours, we are talking 5%. I knew what was coming. He said the savings came not really from wages, it was the cost of doing business in America. He said that, for example, his company, on a nationwide basis, spent more on legal fees than wages. Anyone who runs a small business, and I do, knows exactly what I'm talking about. For instance. The EPA has come out with new regulations that are now being enforced by the state that any plat of land (that's my business. land development and commercial property management) over one acre that is to be disturbed by land clearing/filling/cut must have a storm water run off plan with remedial drainage control According to the EPA this will only ONLY add about 10 to 15% to the project. Not the dirt project, my friends, to the whole damn project. I love union wages. I like those high paid folks spending money in my shopping centers and at my theater. We might be able to pay those wages if it weren't for the damn government. God bless us all. At least we will all be unemployed together. Jgreen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Quote: M20F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnggreen Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Lots of really good points made in this thread. Truth in all. Since you guys seem to be interested in economics and politics, let me suggest a book that, I promise, will impact your attitudes toward both. The Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley. I won't give it away, but it is an economics history book of human civilization with a projection of the incrdible future that is in store. The cautionaries are a little sobering though. Trust me. Now, let's get back to aviation and Mooneys. Jgreen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Quote: jetdriven Chinese company bought them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangemtl Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 ...so, anyone want to talk about ailerons, or landing speeds or glass panels, or something? John Green and others make excellent points: but we have Human Events, and Hot Air, and Huffington Post for those discussions. I have very strong economic and political opinions: but on this site, I'm just a low time pilot with a pretty plane. We can poke fun at the Cirrus antics, and Bonanza poseurs or whatever, just like football rivalries, but: at the heart of it, I'll side with just about any aviator, and just about any airplane manufacturer versus their detractors. As Franklin famously said, If we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PilotDerek Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Quote: orangemtl ...so, anyone want to talk about ailerons, or landing speeds or glass panels, or something? John Green and others make excellent points: but we have Human Events, and Hot Air, and Huffington Post for those discussions. I have very strong economic and political opinions: but on this site, I'm just a low time pilot with a pretty plane. We can poke fun at the Cirrus antics, and Bonanza poseurs or whatever, just like football rivalries, but: at the heart of it, I'll side with just about any aviator, and just about any airplane manufacturer versus their detractors. As Franklin famously said, If we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 +% Michael! How about them Rangers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: jetdriven +% Michael! How about them Rangers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: Hank In the meantime, I'm having DTs, and Rangers on TV just aren't the same as a Ranger strapped to my backside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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