ArrowBerry Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 Hi, Looking into purchasing a 1962 M20C. Did a prebuy yesterday and noticed a very small amount of play in the tail--nothing that raised red flags at the time but something to keep in mind down the road. When we did the test flight, however, we noticed that there was about a 1/2 inch of travel in the rudder pedal before any rudder action was felt from the tail. Felt a little sloppy, hard to be super precisely coordinated in a turn or during a cross wind landing. I've never flown a Mooney, it felt a little odd coming from Cessna's and Piper's. What are your thoughts on this? Can it be cleaned up by replacing some bushings in the tail? What is normal for a Mooney? Other than that we loved the plane! Are there any gotchas with that particular year of the model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 Did you remove the belly panels as part of the inspection? Could just be cumulative slop in the end bearings. As the planes get older those need to be replaced, all flight controls, gear doors, etc. Although typically you can just do a couple at a time. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrowBerry Posted October 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 Not all of them, just a couple around the tail. The mechanic who did the prebuy said that its normal to have some play because of the cumulative effect of all the pushrod connections having a small amount. We weren't particularly worried about having to replace a couple bushings to get rid of any movement, just wanted to make sure having that play in the pedal wasn't an indication of something more sinister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 Just a question: is the mechanic doing the prebuy knowledgeable about Mooneys? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheryLoewen Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 The Rudder Play is in the Nose gear steering mechanism on top of the nose gear and can be exchanged at LASAR parts. The steering on landing is addressed in Service bulletin M20-202. Wear in the nose gear components is very common and can be restored. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F-1968 Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, SheryLoewen said: The Rudder Play is in the Nose gear steering mechanism on top of the nose gear and can be exchanged at LASAR parts. The steering on landing is addressed in Service bulletin M20-202. Wear in the nose gear components is very common and can be restored. It is likely easier to rebuild the steering horn than change to the LASAR Mod which may not be offered any longer. John Breda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 There are a couple of different ‘play’ in the tail measurements... My favorite would be the one where the pilot checks in pre-flight... Which one is this mechanic talking about... Some play is normal from day one... other play may be best handled with rebuilt parts... It helps to have a Mooney knowledgable person doing the PPI to explain this stuff to the potential buyer... What did the rudder do, while the plane was parked? The nosegear keeps the rudder pedals from moving... does the tail flop side to side like it is loose..? How do you know how much travel occurs before the rudder moves while flying... this would be impossible for everyone to actually describe... how fast was the plane traveling... did you base your observation on feel? If your idea of checking the quality of the plane by using a test flight, and you haven’t flown an identical plane lately... you probably want to re-think this method... I sent my plane to be flown by that knows that model... If you set yourself up with impossible expectations... you might be disappointed with the result... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F-1968 Posted October 26, 2020 Report Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, SheryLoewen said: The Rudder Play is in the Nose gear steering mechanism on top of the nose gear and can be exchanged at LASAR parts. The steering on landing is addressed in Service bulletin M20-202. Wear in the nose gear components is very common and can be restored. Sheryl Loewen should know however if LASAR still offers that MOD. I just looked at the LASAR web site (https://lasar.com/mods) and the steering horn MOD is shown as unavailable. It does say that they will rebuild your old steering horn which would be the way I would go. John Breda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted October 27, 2020 Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 20 hours ago, ArrowBerry said: Hi, Looking into purchasing a 1962 M20C. Did a prebuy yesterday and noticed a very small amount of play in the tail--nothing that raised red flags at the time but something to keep in mind down the road. When we did the test flight, however, we noticed that there was about a 1/2 inch of travel in the rudder pedal before any rudder action was felt from the tail. Felt a little sloppy, hard to be super precisely coordinated in a turn or during a cross wind landing. What came first the pre buy or the test flight? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingchump Posted October 27, 2020 Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 Many others said it. Check the steering horn. Get on the ground, look above the nose wheel, and have a friend move the rudder pedals back and forth. Look for lose/slopy linkages. you'll know it if you see it. I have the same problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Check up and down play in tail. Should be less that 1/4 inch Check rudder play at the wait for it rudder. Check for nosewheel play at the nosewheel up on jacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrowBerry Posted October 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 Hi all, thanks for the responses. The prebuy was done before the flight by a mechanic who works on a lot of different GA planes, not specifically Mooney's. In the Canadian prairies there are not many Mooney's around so to find a shop which specializes in them is not realistic--same with finding a pilot with lots of Mooney time (who is also not the seller) to do a test flight. To source all of those people with the travel restrictions that we have in place is very difficult if not near impossible right now unfortunately. This particular one ended up selling before we could make an offer but we are looking into a 1967 E model now. The plane has had a very extensive annual done this fall which involved redoing the interior with new soundproofing insulation and a freshly overhauled engine, among a bunch of new parts and upgraded avionics. One thing we noticed during a look is a small seepage of fuel in the right gear well. I know this is a common Mooney issue which can be rectified, but to all of your expert eyes--exactly how bad would you consider this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, ArrowBerry said: Hi all, thanks for the responses. The prebuy was done before the flight by a mechanic who works on a lot of different GA planes, not specifically Mooney's. In the Canadian prairies there are not many Mooney's around so to find a shop which specializes in them is not realistic--same with finding a pilot with lots of Mooney time (who is also not the seller) to do a test flight. To source all of those people with the travel restrictions that we have in place is very difficult if not near impossible right now unfortunately. This particular one ended up selling before we could make an offer but we are looking into a 1967 E model now. The plane has had a very extensive annual done this fall which involved redoing the interior with new soundproofing insulation and a freshly overhauled engine, among a bunch of new parts and upgraded avionics. One thing we noticed during a look is a small seepage of fuel in the right gear well. I know this is a common Mooney issue which can be rectified, but to all of your expert eyes--exactly how bad would you consider this? That one isn’t an inspection panel screw, rivet, or sender gasket... those are pretty easy fixes. This one will take a bit more work and possibly an experienced/specialized shop to find and get fixed. In the states, we have a couple common places but if you can’t bring it down, I’m not sure where in Canada you’d take it. @M20Doc would know. So it might not be a current airworthiness issue. It’s probably ok for now if you can put up with it, but fixing it could eventually be kind of expensive. Getting both tanks stripped and resealed costs on the order of 3-4 weeks and $10-$12,000. Half that for one tank. You can also just have them find and seal the leak but there’s a good debate on the long term success of that. As a standard disclaimer... I’m not an A&P, so I’ll be interested in seeing other’s opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 Unfortunately tank repairs are in the future for this plane, whether a complete resealable or a repair. From a buying perspective it should be on the owners dime. luckily you’re close to Weep no More. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 It's fall now, so when you say the annual was done "this fall" I assume that you mean very recently. I would want to understand why the current owner put so much money into it and then decided to sell it right away and I would look very carefully at the work that was done. There are lots of flavors of engine overhauls and I would want to know if it was overhauled to new of service limits, if the cam and lifters were new or reground, and what was done with the cylinders. I'd also look over the avionics installation very carefully. A big part of avionics cost is the installation and wiring and the shops that give cheap prices cut corners here that can cause lots of problems later. Since they had the interior out and upgraded the insulation, I'd expect to see a SB 208 inspection signoff. Skip 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrowBerry Posted October 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 The plane is currently owned by a large, reputable maintenance shop. They bought it a year ago from an elderly customer of theirs who was not flying very much. My thought is that they probably bought it cheaply, and can put the work into it at their cost and turn around and sell it. From what they tell me they are still taking a loss on it and want it sold. I have reviewed the logs, as has my mechanic, and they look good. And I did check for SB 208 and it was completed with the installation of the interior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 So it needs tank work and got an interior instead? Sounds good to me... first time plane buyers are best off buying a plane that is flying often... Mooneys are best off being maintained by Mooney knowledgeable mechanics... hard to be patient when planes are selling all around.... getting a good one takes some patience... buying an imperfect one takes extra patience.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prior owner Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 In regards to the play in the rudder, I believe that the OP’s complaint was that there was play in the rudder only, with no mention of play in the nose wheel. The steering horn assembly is not in series with the rudder linkages, as they are parallel systems (Except as stated below). Excessive play in the nose wheel does not translate into play in the rudder- unless the play is discovered to be in the rudder torque tube bushings or in the rudder torque tube control linkages that connect directly to the pedals. Those linkages will affect play in both the nose wheel and the rudder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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