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Low Pass


201Steve

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I’ve never considered a low pass over the airport as being reckless. I’m reading the current edition of AOPA magazine and Richard McSpadden (love his podcast) tells a safety story where someone makes a low pass on the field and he regrets not confronting the pilot about it. Seemed a little over the top to me, but... what say you about the practice of a low pass?

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Im located in Montana and a low pass on most of our little fields is for safety. Many of the fields do not have a game fence so in the winter when the runways are the only open area deer, antelope, and bird congregate on them. Upon arrival I announce a low pass to check for game and sock conditions then after ascend and enter into the pattern. 

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41 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I’ve never considered a low pass over the airport as being reckless. I’m reading the current edition of AOPA magazine and Richard McSpadden (love his podcast) tells a safety story where someone makes a low pass on the field and he regrets not confronting the pilot about it. Seemed a little over the top to me, but... what say you about the practice of a low pass?

I thought that column by McSpadden was WAY over the top.  Frankly, I've always thought the guy a pompous ass; this just confirmed it.

I failed to see ANYTHING wrong with what the pilot did.  Honestly, I think the ONLY reason McSpadden didn't confront the pilot was that he KNEW the pilot didn't break any regs!  He was just upset he couldn't come up with something.  So, he wasted a bunch of ink spouting off in public to make himself feel superior.

Don't ask how I really feel:D

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Like almost everything else, I think it's a gray area.  It depends...

How low?  100'?  50'?  5'?  At some point it becomes a safety issue bordering on reckless.  Where that point is I don't know.

Why?  To clear game off the runway?  Good plan.  To impress friends and relatives?  Not so much, but done in a reasonable manner, probably not a big deal.  Unless you pull up too hard at the end of the runway and either over-stress the plane or get an accelerated stall.  Or you turn while at a too low altitude and scrape a wingtip.

In the Air Force we used to say something along the line of, "If you wouldn't do it with the Wing Commander watching, then don't do it."  We could substitute FSDO instead.

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13 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Like almost everything else, I think it's a gray area.  It depends...

How low?  100'?  50'?  5'?  At some point it becomes a safety issue bordering on reckless.  Where that point is I don't know.

Why?  To clear game off the runway?  Good plan.  To impress friends and relatives?  Not so much, but done in a reasonable manner, probably not a big deal.  Unless you pull up too hard at the end of the runway and either over-stress the plane or get an accelerated stall.  Or you turn while at a too low altitude and scrape a wingtip.

In the Air Force we used to say something along the line of, "If you wouldn't do it with the Wing Commander watching, then don't do it."  We could substitute FSDO instead.

I've only felt the need to duck and run one time, when a genius in an RV made a couple of low passes over the runway then dove down towards me on the taxiway between the hangars . . . .

But he forgot that the Class D field 4 nm away had good radar, because they still offer TRSA services. I heard he got a phone call (but no, I didn't place one; I was also not the only person hurrying away from the taxiway that afternoon).

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I think a big player is also where you do it. I was once doing pattern work at John Wayne, and a guy in an A36 asked for a low pass. As i'm taxiing back to the runway, I see him pass by at give or take 150 to 165 knots, and laughed. nothing wrong with that. Even the tower approved. However if somebody did it at for example at Oceano, or Pacific city airport, 2 very small beach airports in the middle of a small town, those guys are assholes. You do it at an airport like Agua Caliente, or Amboy, 2 airports located in the middle of no where with no community around and no one to bother, who cares.

Low passes are fun, and as long as you don't bother the community around and don't put them in danger, then by all means you should do it.
but also understand that there is an added risk of doing low passes. It's kinda of like IFR flying. it allows you to do more, but theres an added risk to Flying IFR. you just have to find the risk you're willing to give up for the reward.

If you're the type of pilot that does low high speed passes at airports that are trying to be shut down due to noise abatement , such as Santa Monica, or Oceano, please honestly F**k off. Airports aren't being opened any more. They're just being closed.

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So... a summerette...

1) A go around is a low pass.., big whoop.

2) How low? 10’ off the deck at cruise speed... takes some additional responsibility...

  • Jersey shore tragedy... Splash one rented M20J...
  • Botched Go-around... crash one NJ rented M20J
  • Screaming through a busy traffic pattern at Mooney speeds on a Saturday... Not a very friendly maneuver...
  • Being neighborly... Some people like to complain... so don’t do it at your own airport... :)
  • An ordinary T/O in a Mooney feels pretty much like a low pass... compared to other planes...

How about steep turns in the traffic pattern?  Keep the nose down.... :)
 

Sounds like the article was written for the AOPA flight training mag... then got moved to the other publication...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

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1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

such as Santa Monica

Too late to make a difference in terms of closing KSMO, which is closing in 2028, unfortunately. And it's not closing because pilots were making low passes over it. It's closing because people bought houses near an airport and then complained that there were low-flying airplanes overhead. The airport opened in 1923.

I do the noise abatement departure over the golf course when I depart VFR, which is 95% of the time. I don't turn until reaching the shoreline. But I get angry every time I think of the impending closure of the airport.

Rant over.

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Phraseology helps when speaking with controllers. They’d be familiar with a “low approach.” Don’t shine your ass. I would keep it above a wingspan in height. At the departure end no need to pull the wings off either. Just a nice easy release of forward pressure with a gentle turn less than 30° bank. I think it looks way better and much more classy when one sees it flown with greater precision. Versus the goofball that is the next smoking hole. So many think harder is better, harder just makes you look foolish. 
-Matt

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4 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Richard McSpadden (love his podcast) tells a safety story where someone makes a low pass on the field and he regrets not confronting the pilot about i

I can't speak for Richard but I think this article was about when and how to speak up to other pilots.  Not about the dangers of low passes.  Low passes in them self's are not more dangerous than any other takeoff and landing.  I'm guessing Richard did a poor job articulating what he and his friend saw, if we were there we may have felt the same.  The problem is when a low passe is done to impress, usually with a steep pull up at the end.  There are plenty of NTSB reports featuring this maneuver, often with very experienced pilots.

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I thought that column by McSpadden was WAY over the top.  Frankly, I've always thought the guy a pompous ass; this just confirmed it.

I have spoke at several events that Richard has spoke at, as well as been on his podcast.  I know plenty of pompous ass's and Richard isn't one of them.  I found him to be a very nice and humble guy that truly cares about promoting GA safety. 

5 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Phraseology helps when speaking with controllers. They’d be familiar with a “low approach.” Don’t shine your ass. I would keep it above a wingspan in height. At the departure end no need to pull the wings off either. Just a nice easy release of forward pressure with a gentle turn less than 30° bank. I think it looks way better and much more classy when one sees it flown with greater precision. Versus the goofball that is the next smoking hole. So many think harder is better, harder just makes you look foolish. 
-Matt

This!

cheers,

Dan

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37 minutes ago, Flash said:

Too late to make a difference in terms of closing KSMO, which is closing in 2028, unfortunately. And it's not closing because pilots were making low passes over it. It's closing because people bought houses near an airport and then complained that there were low-flying airplanes overhead. The airport opened in 1923.

I do the noise abatement departure over the golf course when I depart VFR, which is 95% of the time. I don't turn until reaching the shoreline. But I get angry every time I think of the impending closure of the airport.

Rant over.

I meant more of doing a low fly by over a place where they can use the excess of noise to aid the shutdown of an airport.

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We were flying the museum DC-3 northbound headed back to KPAE and needed to transition through KRNT’s airspace. I called the tower to request the transition and they replied, “Can we talk you into a low pass?” Never had a tower ask for that before. We happily complied and all had a good time.

Skip

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"If you're the type of pilot that does low high speed passes at airports that are trying to be shut down due to noise abatement , such as Santa Monica, or Oceano, please honestly F**k off. Airports aren't being opened any more. They're just being closed."

For clarification, there is no threat to close Oceano airport for noise abatement, or otherwise.  During my time of being closely involved with the airport [Friends of Oceano Airport], I did survey many residents, as well as commercial businesses within the vicinity of Oceano Airport.  By far, the large majority were delighted to have the airport.  With that said, there were the usual minuscule amount of squawkers that selfishly don't want anything around them that they don't like.

In fact, there was truly never any danger of Oceano Airport closure by anyone, including the county which owns the airport.  If any danger ever existed, it was from an out of the area developer that wanted to persuade the Oceano community that the airport should be removed and a housing/condominium project be developed in its place, using his plan and proposal of such [$$$$].  The developer initially proposed 6 individual public community meetings for his attempted persuasion.  Two of the meetings were held, attended by zero community members and attended only by a huge pilot contingency we gathered.  The remaining 4 meetings never happened, as the developer felt we were too intimidating..........you were quite correct about that Mr. Jeff Edwards [developer]!!

Correct that continued vigilance, involvement and support of your local airport, small or large is imperative!  Correct that respectful behavior is required when flying to/from our airports, large or small.  Be a good neighbor, always.  Be respectful of others as you wish them to be of you...........pretty simple.

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"Low pass" or "low approach" is kind of a trap phrase--it means nothing by itself.  It's a version of the "if by whiskey" fallacy, a common tool of internet trolls.

I just did a "low pass" today at an airport in the middle of a urban area.  I had no intention of landing, my intention was to fly at below the legal minimum altitude along the runway and make a climb at the end at full power, where there is a large residential area that was going to hear the full force of my Hartzell prop.

What actually happened today is that it was my first post-annual flight, so I remained in the pattern at the towered airport and asked for a low pass and a visual landing gear check from the tower.  I descended but stayed above 300' AGL because I wanted them looking up at the gear, and because of said urban sprawl around the airport.  As such, I was farther away from the ground than a normal landing and takeoff.

Obviously, what I did today was not going to cause the problems people are discussing.  Yet, as @carusoam pointed out, there are plenty of smoking holes from other "low passes", as well as the other problems they can cause.  Clearly there is a difference, but it is not part of the phrase "low pass"--rather, it's in its nuances.  

As to the other topic of whether to confront behavior that is unsafe, I think it's far more appropriate to confront a fellow pilot directly than to jump straight to calling the FSDO, yet I imagine the latter happens far more often than the former.  I think pilots, like many professions, fail in having a culture of calling each other out and giving each other appropriate feedback when necessary.  While it's human to avoid the discomfort of confronting someone who is similarly qualified, it's a necessary part of any safety culture, and I think we generally suck at it (even if many other professions suck more).

Edited by jaylw314
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6 hours ago, DanM20C said:

I can't speak for Richard but I think this article was about when and how to speak up to other pilots.  Not about the dangers of low passes.  Low passes in them self's are not more dangerous than any other takeoff and landing.  I'm guessing Richard did a poor job articulating what he and his friend saw, if we were there we may have felt the same.  The problem is when a low passe is done to impress, usually with a steep pull up at the end.  There are plenty of NTSB reports featuring this maneuver, often with very experienced pilots.

I have spoke at several events that Richard has spoke at, as well as been on his podcast.  I know plenty of pompous ass's and Richard isn't one of them.  I found him to be a very nice and humble guy that truly cares about promoting GA safety. 

This!

cheers,

Dan

Dan, while I have never met Richard, I have had a bit of communication with him and found him to be humble and genuine as you state. He was scheduled to be one of the SME's at the Mooney Summit VIII and perhaps @Seth will install him in the agenda again, as he has a wealth of knowledge to share. Perhaps he came across a little pompous in the article, I am positive it wasn't his intent or his heart. I sure have in articles and presentations without meaning so while trying to emphasize and know how easy it is to misstep here. I have found you to be one of the more gifted people that can express yourself and never do it with a perception of judgement, a skill I constantly try to emulate.

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A low pass to check the windsock or chase away animals makes really good sense.  The number of those I've seen adds up to exactly zero.  All the low passes I've seen were from guys in experimentals (mostly RVs) showing off.  Not a big fan of folks showing off and buzzing.  Too many have died doing it.

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10 hours ago, PT20J said:

We were flying the museum DC-3 northbound headed back to KPAE and needed to transition through KRNT’s airspace. I called the tower to request the transition and they replied, “Can we talk you into a low pass?” Never had a tower ask for that before. We happily complied and all had a good time.

Skip

Back when I was a tower controller, there were several occasions when I asked pilots if they would like a low pass. It was usually military aircraft, but I also asked the occasional civilian pilot flying an aircraft type that I thought interesting/rare. 

The down side of being a radar controller is that all airplanes look the same on the scope.

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15 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I’ve never considered a low pass over the airport as being reckless. I’m reading the current edition of AOPA magazine and Richard McSpadden (love his podcast) tells a safety story where someone makes a low pass on the field and he regrets not confronting the pilot about it. Seemed a little over the top to me, but... what say you about the practice of a low pass?

Heck, ATL tower offered me a low pass with a heavy on my retirement flight. Nothing dangerous, but in a TAA it needs to be planned and briefed. Otherwise, there is nothing dangerous about it. Even worse, is the idea of "confronting" the pilots. Absurd.

 

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So, yesterday I stopped at KSVC (Silver City, NM) for fuel. I was about 7 miles out on a left base. I'm about to call in when A C-17 calls in and says they are going to do a low pass on 8. I call them and say I'm 7 SE on the base for 26 (the active runway). They come back and say they will offset south. I call them back and say I'm south you should offset north. They don't respond. I don't see them until I'm on final, and they are cooking along at an illegally fast speed. I call them and ask what their intentions are. They don't respond. They are coming straight at me, same altitude at a very fast speed. I'm about to break off to the left, when they break off to the left. they were about 1/2 mile from me at that point.

I respect the military, but this was not safe.

Wish I wasn't so busy with the plane so I could have grabbed my phone and shot a video.

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7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

A C-17 calls in and says they are going to do a low pass on 8.

At least it was a C-17.  Anytime the military is in the neighborhood, we have these tiny little F-16's zipping around.  Given their size and speed, it's a bit harder to spot them and keep track of where they are!

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1 minute ago, skydvrboy said:

At least it was a C-17.  Anytime the military is in the neighborhood, we have these tiny little F-16's zipping around.  Given their size and speed, it's a bit harder to spot them and keep track of where they are!

Yeah, they are designed to be hard to see, and they did a good job. The C-17 had the same low visibility paint. The first thing I saw was the smoke from its engines.

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