Engine upgrade or overhaul time

[bmcconnaha]

hey guys and gals.  i think its time to think about an engine in 73U.  The original engine is running well, but i have a few oil leaks that im getting tired of.  it is either to the point of pulling cylinders to address leaks on the cylinder studs/bases, new hoses, baffles are looking a little tired, and im 100 hrs away from a mag inspection.  Not much flying to be done here in the PNW over winter, so i might use the down time to knock this out.  original prop is a 214, but im thinking ill get a new prop while i am at it instead of overhauling this one.  see poll for the options i have narrowed it down to.  Im thinking factory rebuilt on both the top two to get the roller cam.  Ill go electronic ignition for sure on one mag on the 360 if i go that way, and if i can get it on the 390 (need to read the STC).  vote away.  Thanks

[Niko182]

I'd go 390 if I could. No replacement for displacement.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

No replacement for displacement.

While I would never disagree with Big Daddy Don Garlits' famous quote, I've read less-than-glowing reports of the -390. Have you heard good things about it? To me, that is worth investigating further before deciding which way to go.

[Niko182]

Just now, Hank said:

While I would never disagree with Big Daddy Don Garlits' famous quote, I've read less-than-glowing reports of the -390. Have you heard good things about it? To me, that is worth investigating further before deciding which way to go.

I have not. I'm just going on the "more power" ideology. If reliability is a serious issue, I would also stem away from the 390.

[bmcconnaha]

Just now, Niko182 said:

I have not. I'm just going on the "more power" ideology. If reliability is a serious issue, I would also stem away from the 390.

very limited data out there in the Mooney world on the 390.  i don't hear much negative in the experimental versions such as the sportsman 2+2 or the rv14 installations.  most of the negatives were the cost from what I've heard.  In this case the 390 costs LESS than the 360 from Lycoming.  Im getting a new prop either way, but stuck with the top prop.... costs turn out to be about a wash between the two. 

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

very limited data out there in the Mooney world on the 390.  i don't hear much negative in the experimental versions such as the sportsman 2+2 or the rv14 installations.  most of the negatives were the cost from what I've heard.  In this case the 390 costs LESS than the 360 from Lycoming.  Im getting a new prop either way, but stuck with the top prop.... costs turn out to be about a wash between the two. 

All I remember is early Mooney adopters were unhappy. Since it's not approved for my C, I wasn't terribly concerned with all of the whys and wherefores, but I do remember the what.

Not sure if I read about it here or on the MAPA Mailing List, it was not long after the IO-390 was released. 2010-ish?

[KLRDMD]

None of the above. Jewell OH of what you have now.

[MATTS875]

From what I’ve read there is not much performance difference between the 360 and 390

[bmcconnaha]

21 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

None of the above. Jewell OH of what you have now.

No.  I’m not overhauling an a3b6d. The single mag isn’t my cup of tea.  Plus I want electronic ignition.  

[bmcconnaha]

13 minutes ago, MATTS875 said:

From what I’ve read there is not much performance difference between the 360 and 390

I’ve found very little true comparisons.  I do some high density altitude departures once and a while and I believe the extra power shows itself in climb rather than cruise speed, which is important to me.   But I don’t believe there is zero benefit in cruise.  

[MATTS875]

11 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

I’ve found very little true comparisons.  I do some high density altitude departures once and a while and I believe the extra power shows itself in climb rather than cruise speed, which is important to me.   But I don’t believe there is zero benefit in cruise.  

Yes. I think your going to get more out of the right prop

[bmcconnaha]

1 minute ago, MATTS875 said:

Yes. I think your going to get more out of the right prop

I’ve read the McCauley is tough to beat.  I think the top prop weighs more, but I haven’t verified that.  The MT appeals to to me in both the look, and the weight.  

[MATTS875]

From what I’ve read the MT is what seems to work out for the best. 

[carusoam]

Let’s see...  we could invite some people that may have seen a few...

@M20Doc and @jetdriven

And that guy that put an MT on his J a while ago...

Find Scott from Kansas... @KSMooniac

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

Sadly I’ve never worked on a J with a 390.  Cirrus is now installing one in the SR20.

Clarence 

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

No.  I’m not overhauling an a3b6d. The single mag isn’t my cup of tea.  Plus I want electronic ignition.  

Have them convert it.

[bmcconnaha]

32 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Have them convert it.

I have heard of that, but no shops have offered that when I asked about it.  Might be something to look at.  Of course if I go that way I miss out on the roller cam....

[OR75]

I’d go IO-390 

initially, the cost was higher : cost of the engine was higher, need the hartzel prop and you had to use a lycoming service center 

the only thing that remains is that you still need a hartzel prop. I have not heard of any issue from a reliability standpoint (it is in the SR20 as mentioned above)
 

note also that the accessories panel is the same as the IO-360-A3B6 (non D) ... so that means you will have to deal with new hoses and governor setting / brackets anyway

[gsxrpilot]

12 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

No.  I’m not overhauling an a3b6d. The single mag isn’t my cup of tea.  Plus I want electronic ignition.  

You have Western Skyways overhaul on your list of options.

There is nothing Western Skyways can do that Jewell can't. The difference will be 50% of the cost or less.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

I have heard of that, but no shops have offered that when I asked about it.  Might be something to look at.  Of course if I go that way I miss out on the roller cam....

If you send an -A3B6D to Lycoming for a factory rebuild you'll get an -A3B6 back.   If you want the roller cams and the conversion to separate mags, that's probably a good way to do it.

 

[Mooney217RN]

About 4-5 years ago, I replaced my engine on my E Model.

I went with a Factory Reman on an IO-360 A3B6.  The engine came from the factory, no issues whatsoever.  A factory reman is every bit as good as factory new.  From what I understand, they do NOT use anything but NEW on any moving part.

Let me make a suggestion, while you're at it.  Power Flow Tuned Exhaust.  I did mine years before I replaced my engine.  That tuned exhaust will provide you with no less than 10% more power coming off that 360.  As you climb in altitude, it shines.  Far better than going with a 390.  It was one of the best upgrades I ever did on my E Model, and I did a lot.

[Speed Merchant]

16 hours ago, Hank said:

While I would never disagree with Big Daddy Don Garlits' famous quote, I've read less-than-glowing reports of the -390. Have you heard good things about it? To me, that is worth investigating further before deciding which way to go.

You should check the cost of new cylinders for the IO-390- I have heard less than glowing reports also

[Speed Merchant]

44 minutes ago, Mooney217RN said:

About 4-5 years ago, I replaced my engine on my E Model.

I went with a Factory Reman on an IO-360 A3B6.  The engine came from the factory, no issues whatsoever.  A factory reman is every bit as good as factory new.  From what I understand, they do NOT use anything but NEW on any moving part.

Let me make a suggestion, while you're at it.  Power Flow Tuned Exhaust.  I did mine years before I replaced my engine.  That tuned exhaust will provide you with no less than 10% more power coming off that 360.  As you climb in altitude, it shines.  Far better than going with a 390.  It was one of the best upgrades I ever did on my E Model, and I did a lot.

The Power Flow is a great product- They work well on an E or F. They still provide benefit on the J models but not as much because of the better exhaust on the J.  

[OR75]

18 minutes ago, Speed Merchant said:

You should check the cost of new cylinders for the IO-390- I have heard less than glowing reports also

That’s not the case any more 

I am curious if you could point to any documentation of issues with the 390. I am legitimately curious. I have not lurked in the SR20 communities. Maybe the biggest default of the IO-390 is What we are comparing it to:  the IO-360 is a very robust engine 

[bmcconnaha]

2 hours ago, OR75 said:

That’s not the case any more 

I am curious if you could point to any documentation of issues with the 390. I am legitimately curious. I have not lurked in the SR20 communities. Maybe the biggest default of the IO-390 is What we are comparing it to:  the IO-360 is a very robust engine 

yep.  cylinders are showing 1800-1900 range now.  so, why not go 390? i used to own an sr22, and am still on the cirrus page...i see no complaints about the 390.  of course they havent been out too long