Can you log PIC time in a Mooney without Complex Rating?

[Ragsf15e]

46 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The only way I’m aware a safety pilot can log pic under 61.51e is if he’s serving as pilot in command at the same time and that requires complex endorsement. 
So the safety pilot meet all the serving as pic requirements  

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an  aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the  aircraftor the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

-Robert 

I agree.  I think there’s an aopa article on it.  I’ll see if I can dig it up.

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, Ragsf15e said:

I agree.  I think there’s an aopa article on it.  I’ll see if I can dig it up.

And here it is...  seems that if both want to log pic, the safety pilot is the actual pic and thus needs HP/Complex rating so she/he can be pic. The other pilot can log pic due to being sole manipulator of controls.

if the safety pilot isn’t pic, then aopa has a legal interpretation... see below.

The safety pilot:

• Must be at least a private pilot. (FAR 91.109[b][1])
• Must hold the category and class ratings (airplane, single-engine land) for the aircraft flown. (FAR 91.109[b][1])
• Must have a current medical. As a required flight crewmember, the safety pilot must have a current medical certificate. (FAR 61.3[c])
• Must occupy the other control seat (normally, although not required, the right or "copilot's" seat). (FAR 91.109[b][1])

• Safety pilot.

• Pilot-in-command time may be logged if acting as PIC. 
  • The two pilots must agree that the safety pilot is the acting PIC.
  • PIC time may be logged only while the other pilot is "under-the-hood."
  • PIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) allows certificated pilots to log PIC when acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109[b]) under which the flight is conducted. A safety pilot is required for "hood work."
• Second-in-command time may be logged if not acting as PIC. 
  • Usually the case if the safety pilot cannot act as PIC. An example might be when the safety pilot is not endorsed for the particular airplane (such as in a high-performance aircraft).
  • SIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(f)(2) allows a pilot to log all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft under which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109[b]) under which the flight is conducted.

Other considerations

• Summary of logging PIC. Both pilots may log PIC time if the safety pilot is the acting pilot in command. FAR 61.51(e) allows both the sole manipulator of the controls and the acting PIC to log PIC time.
• Acting as PIC. The safety pilot should not take the role as acting PIC lightly. What if the aircraft is involved in an accident, incident, or violates a FAR?
• High-performance aircraft. AOPA has a letter of interpretation that states when the safety pilot is not the acting PIC, a high-performance "sign-off" is not required. However, some FAA divisions may interpret the regulations differently. Prudence suggests that the safety pilot be endorsed for high-performance aircraft and thoroughly familiar and current in the aircraft.
• Recording flight. AOPA suggests that both pilots include in their logbook the name of the other pilot. This may assist you if the FAA ever questions the logged time.

A single-yoke aircraft may not be used unless:

• The single-engine airplane is equipped with a single throwover control wheel. (FAR 91.109[b][3])
• The safety pilot determines the flight can be conducted safely. (FAR 91.109[b][3][i])
• The person manipulating the controls is at least a private pilot who holds the category and class ratings of the aircraft being flown. (FAR 91.109[b][3][ii])

[jaylw314]

Whew!  I take back what I said about a simple way of thinking about it!  

A paranoid question for everyone--If you are a passenger in a complex plane being flown by another pilot who has an incident or accident, and then, unbeknownst to you, it turns out that person never received a complex endorsement, can the FAA take action against you?  After all, there was no paperwork that you WEREN'T the PIC if the other pilot claims you were.

Edited October 31, 2020 by jaylw314

[Ragsf15e]

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Whew!  I take back what I said about a simple way of thinking about it!  

No doubt.  When the faa is concerned, nothing is simple.  Just yesterday I was laughing that they have a legal interpretation about the meaning of the word “known” (in the context of icing).

[skydvrboy]

Well that makes everything clear as mud!  Actually, I think I get it now.

[skydvrboy]

20 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Sure you can do that. But only the guy flying can log pic. 61.51 doesn’t allow pilots to log pic only because they are pic of the flight. 

So, if I understand this correctly, I can take an old pilot up who hasn't flown in years, turn the controls over to him, and he can log that portion of the flight.  The only catch is then I can't log that portion of the flight since I am only acting as PIC and not actually manipulating the controls.  Please let me know if this is incorrect.

[PT20J]

50 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

So, if I understand this correctly, I can take an old pilot up who hasn't flown in years, turn the controls over to him, and he can log that portion of the flight.  The only catch is then I can't log that portion of the flight since I am only acting as PIC and not actually manipulating the controls.  Please let me know if this is incorrect.

This is correct. And it is the reason for allowing flight instructors to log the time they are giving dual instruction as PIC. Otherwise, instructors would not get flight time credit for instructing.

Skip

[skykrawler]

I think the FAA has got it wrong.  Hey should encourage simulated IFR practice while they talk about crashes due to inadvertent flight into IMC .   I understand instructors logging PIC with pilots training for a rating.   But, an ATP applicant with 500 hours of PIC logged as a safety pilot seems to be missing some quality experience.

 

So...I let my VFR rated pilot friend control my airplane from the right seat, but I manage power settings, tell him when to start decent and at what rate.  Make sure he maintains the altitude at level off and deceleration, then I take over and land.   Who logs what?  There is no sole manipulator of controls.  Yikes, no pilot in command.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Whew!  I take back what I said about a simple way of thinking about it!  

A paranoid question for everyone--If you are a passenger in a complex plane being flown by another pilot who has an incident or accident, and then, unbeknownst to you, it turns out that person never received a complex endorsement, can the FAA take action against you?  After all, there was no paperwork that you WEREN'T the PIC if the other pilot claims you were.

That is a bit paranoid. Kind if an offshoot of the "alway go after the highest certificate" mythology.

Will the FAA inquire? Will they look at the conduct if another pilot on board? Sure. They always do, even if the flying pilot was an ATP with every certificate, rating, type rating and endorsement that exists.

Can the other pilot toss you under the bus if he's a lying a$$hole? Maybe, but that's not a problem limited to aviation.

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

22 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

Hey should encourage simulated IFR practice while they talk about crashes due to inadvertent flight into IMC . 

How do the current rules, which allow both pilots to log flight time (although not always PIC time) which can be used toward advanced certificates and ratings, discourage simulated IFR practice?

[201er]

12 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

So, if I understand this correctly, I can take an old pilot up who hasn't flown in years, turn the controls over to him, and he can log that portion of the flight.  The only catch is then I can't log that portion of the flight since I am only acting as PIC and not actually manipulating the controls.  Please let me know if this is incorrect.

Yes. Unless he’s under the hood and you are PIC/Safety. Then you can both log.

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

So, if I understand this correctly, I can take an old pilot up who hasn't flown in years, turn the controls over to him, and he can log that portion of the flight.  The only catch is then I can't log that portion of the flight since I am only acting as PIC and not actually manipulating the controls.  Please let me know if this is incorrect.

Yes, you understand it correctly (unless someone is under the hood).

Here's the thing that helps me with the "why?" We think of our logbooks as a journal of our experience. But the one and only FAA reason for them is to show is in FAR 61.51(a) - to show training and experience to meet qualification for FAA certificates and ratings and to demonstrate regulatory currency. Their certificates, their ratings, their qualifications = their rules. For whatever reason lost in the mists of time, the FAA has made some decisions which might not fit with your and my notions of how things ought to be and even some which seem like very weird anomalies, like the one you mention. 

I've been dealing with this long enough I no longer scratch my head over it. I just try to understand and apply the rules.

 

 

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, skykrawler said:

I think the FAA has got it wrong.  Hey should encourage simulated IFR practice while they talk about crashes due to inadvertent flight into IMC .   I understand instructors logging PIC with pilots training for a rating.   But, an ATP applicant with 500 hours of PIC logged as a safety pilot seems to be missing some quality experience.

 

So...I let my VFR rated pilot friend control my airplane from the right seat, but I manage power settings, tell him when to start decent and at what rate.  Make sure he maintains the altitude at level off and deceleration, then I take over and land.   Who logs what?  There is no sole manipulator of controls.  Yikes, no pilot in command.

I'm assuming you're friend is not able to act as PIC, e.g. that he's not instrument rated and you're on an IFR flight plan.  In that case, YOU are acting as PIC for the whole IFR flight.  He could log PIC time only if he was the SOLE manipulator of the controls, which he wasn't if you were managing power settings.  If you weren't doing that, then one of you could log PIC.

If you were NOT on an IFR flight plan, then your friend could act as PIC (assuming he has the necessary endorsements), and you could split logging PIC time any way you wanted by either designating one as acting PIC or by splitting sole controls.

The part that is somewhat noodle-baking is that if you're on an IFR flight plan in VMC, and your friend is the sole manipulator while under the hood, both of you could log PIC since two can log PIC for simulated instrument training.  You'd be acting PIC and he'd be the sole manipulator, so you both can log it.  HOWEVER, the moment you fly into IMC, you're no longer in simulated instrument training, you're in ACTUAL IMC, and now only one person can log PIC, whereas a moment ago both of you could.  Then when you're back in VMC, both of you could log PIC again.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by jaylw314

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That is a bit paranoid. Kind if an offshoot of the "alway go after the highest certificate" mythology.

Will the FAA inquire? Will they look at the conduct if another pilot on board? Sure. They always do, even if the flying pilot was an ATP with every certificate, rating, type rating and endorsement that exists.

Can the other pilot toss you under the bus if he's a lying a$$hole? Maybe, but that's not a problem limited to aviation.

That's me, paranoid.  Or at least I'm like that annoying kid in class that always asks the edge case questions...

It does kind of go back to the fact that we don't write down anything about the "acting as PIC" thing.  Why isn't this a thing and why doesn't the FAA make it a thing?

[RobertGary1]

37 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That's me, paranoid.  Or at least I'm like that annoying kid in class that always asks the edge case questions...

It does kind of go back to the fact that we don't write down anything about the "acting as PIC" thing.  Why isn't this a thing and why doesn't the FAA make it a thing?

Because no rating or currency requires it. If you’d like to go ahead and make yourself a column for your own enjoyment. I have columns for turbine and tailwheel and complex mostly just for insurance 

[PT20J]

40 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

It does kind of go back to the fact that we don't write down anything about the "acting as PIC" thing.  Why isn't this a thing and why doesn't the FAA make it a thing?

I think you are reading too much into the phrase "acting as PIC."  Without respect to logging, you are either the pilot in command, or you are not. The actual language of the regs is of the form, "No person may act as pilot in command unless..." The regs simply tell you the conditions necessary to act as (or "be" if you prefer) PIC.

Logging PIC time is a separate issue.

Skip

[carusoam]

Being in and out of IMC can really add to the challenges of proper logging...

Kind of like an ump counting balls and strikes after every pitch... clicking away each tenth of an hour...

Was that last minute flown solely by reference to instruments or did the ground or sun appear..?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or IR current...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Because no rating or currency requires it. If you’d like to go ahead and make yourself a column for your own enjoyment. I have columns for turbine and tailwheel and complex mostly just for insurance 

If I were concerned about it, I'd make a note before the flight. If I were really paranoid, it would be by email or text with a confirmatory response from the other pilot. I sometimes do that with trainees when I don't meet the minimums for their insurance pilot warranty, but that's to protect the owner in case of a mishap.

[201er]

Explaining some ways a private pilot can log actual instrument time without an instrument rating:

 

 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

I think you are reading too much into the phrase "acting as PIC."  Without respect to logging, you are either the pilot in command, or you are not. The actual language of the regs is of the form, "No person may act as pilot in command unless..." The regs simply tell you the conditions necessary to act as (or "be" if you prefer) PIC.

Logging PIC time is a separate issue.

Skip

I guess I was thinking more of those instances where there is confusion about who is PIC because two pilots didn't make an explicit agreement ahead of time.  I'm guessing that when a pilot sits in the passenger seat, this discussion doesn't occur half the time.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I guess I was thinking more of those instances where there is confusion about who is PIC because two pilots didn't make an explicit agreement ahead of time.  I'm guessing that when a pilot sits in the passenger seat, this discussion doesn't occur half the time.

I think it depends. There can be circumstances which change it, but generally, if I am not instructing, I say it in a rental we are both authorized to fly but think it is implicit when in an owner's airplane. 

[skykrawler]

On 11/1/2020 at 7:30 AM, midlifeflyer said:

How do the current rules, which allow both pilots to log flight time (although not always PIC time) which can be used toward advanced certificates and ratings, discourage simulated IFR practice?

With the understanding that a safety pilot is there to ensure clearances with clouds and other aircraft.....

It is my understanding that a pilot using basic med cannot act as a SP

A pilot with an expired medical cannot act as a SP

A pilot with with MEL and no SEL rating  (qualified cat/class) cannot act as a SP in a SEL (what about a SEL water, is that an 'appropriate' class for land?)

A pilot with a sport rating cannot act as a SP (minimum private pilot)

 

[Hank]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

With the understanding that a safety pilot is there to ensure clearances with clouds and other aircraft.....

It is my understanding that a pilot using basic med cannot act as a SP

A pilot with an expired medical cannot act as a SP

A pilot with with MEL and no SEL rating  (qualified cat/class) cannot act as a SP in a SEL (what about a SEL water, is that an 'appropriate' class for land?)

A pilot with a sport rating cannot act as a SP (minimum private pilot)

 

That's SES, Single Engine Sea, and rules them out on either category or class, I can never remember which is which. Need an SEL pilot to be your safety pilot in simulated Instrument conditions 

[Marauder]

One thing to keep in mind. If the person acting as safety pilot is decided to act in the capacity of PIC, they may be legal from an FAA perspective, but may not meet the requirements of your insurance policy's open pilot clause.

[Hank]

Just now, Marauder said:

One thing to keep in mind. If the person acting as safety pilot is decided to act in the capacity of PIC, they may be legal from an FAA perspective, but may not meet the requirements of your insurance policy's open pilot clause.

If you're flying the plane, does the Open Pilot clause apply? Never heard of that. @Parker_Woodruff???