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prebuy or annual?


Jerry Pressley

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2 hours ago, McMooney said:

 

Same conditions i would give someone buying my plane,  you will get exactly what's stated no less.

 

Really?

You'd be fine PAYING for ANYTHING that the buyer's A&P found wrong with your decades old airplane, or drop the price?

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38 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Really?

You'd be fine PAYING for ANYTHING that the buyer's A&P found wrong with your decades old airplane, or drop the price?

We negotiate, we come to a deal or we don't.  As an owner, you should know the state of your bird,  Ok, maybe not EVERYThing but the discrepancy list shouldn't be long.  If the list is longer than expected, maybe we shouldn't be talking.

 

Edited by McMooney
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Sounds like we are all saying the same thing...

When selling old machinery, there is always room for unknown conditions to be discovered...

When selling old planes, the bench mark of AW is usually invoked...

Mostly, because if it isn’t in AW condition... that can really wreck the value of the plane...

Most owners haven’t seen the AW of their plane since its last annual...
 

Corrosion of many forms can occur in that amount of time... some are easy to fix, others are better to find a different plane... 
 

You all are on the same team...  :)

Best regards,

-a-

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10 minutes ago, McMooney said:

We negotiate, we come to a deal or we don't.  As an owner, you should know the state of your bird,  Ok, maybe not EVERYThing but the discrepancy list shouldn't be long.  If it does, we prob shouldn't deal.

 

Ah, so you're ok having MY A&P do the inspection?

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16 minutes ago, McMooney said:

We negotiate, we come to a deal or we don't.  As an owner, you should know the state of your bird,  Ok, maybe not EVERYThing but the discrepancy list shouldn't be long.  If it does, we prob shouldn't deal.

 

Non airworthiness “discrepancies” are very subjective to whomever is doing the annual. Some guys thjnk there is a calendar limit on donuts for instance (there is not).  I used to rotate between different Mooney service centers. They all wrote up things the others didn’t  

-Robert 

 

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2 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I’m glad I don’t do PPI’s for you guys, it far to dramatic for me.

Clarence

How do you handle the case where the buyer backs out and leaves the bill? Do you persue  the seller? I’ve had brokers tell me this happens enough that they require a release from the mechanic before starting.  
 

-Robert

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The buyer leaves enough of a deposit to cover the sellers cost of relocating the plane and enough to put the plane back together.  

I’ve never had a buyer stiff either party, maybe it’s a bigger deal for you guys.

Clarence

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25 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Ah, so you're ok having MY A&P do the inspection?

Yes, isn't that airplane buying rule #1?   you have the plane inspected by someone you trust or at the very least someone your are paying. 

That being said,  i was floored when my ppi/annual came back EXACTLY as the seller represented it. No squawks.  I had my mechanic change the sparkplugs just to be doing something.

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Just now, McMooney said:

Yes, isn't that airplane buying rule #1?   you have the plane inspected by someone you trust or at the very least someone your are paying.  never trust the sellers, annual, inspections blah blah blah.

That being said,  i was floored when my ppi/annual came back EXACTLY as the seller represented it. No squawks.  I had my mechanic change the sparkplugs just to be doing something.

NO!  I was asking if you, as a buyer, would be okay with the seller's A&P doing the inspection!  Of course not!  So, why, as a seller, am I going to give a buyer carte blanche with HIS A&P!  That would be equally crazy!

I don't think you realize how rare your situation was.

To cut to the chase: When I was shopping I had an MSC A&P that was going to perform the pre-buy actually ask me, "So, do you want me to find a bunch of discrepancies so that you can negotiate the price down?". THAT is why, as a seller, I would NEVER agree to fix anything and everything that a buyer's A&P 'found.''

The deal I eventually did was the seller would fix any airworthiness items up to a certain limit.  Didn't find any airworthiness issues, but I chose to fix some, but not all, of the other discrepancies found on my own dime.  If it had been excessive I could have walked away just out the pre-buy expense (my seller didn't require a deposit)

 

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2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

NO!  I was asking if you, as a buyer, would be okay with the seller's A&P doing the inspection!  Of course not!  So, why, as a seller, am I going to give a buyer carte blanche with HIS A&P!  That would be equally crazy!

I don't think you realize how rare your situation was.

To cut to the chase: When I was shopping I had an MSC A&P that was going to perform the pre-buy actually ask me, "So, do you want me to find a bunch of discrepancies so that you can negotiate the price down?". THAT is why, as a seller, I would NEVER agree to fix anything and everything that a buyer's A&P 'found.''

The deal I eventually did was the seller would fix any airworthiness items up to a certain limit.  Didn't find any airworthiness issues, but I chose to fix some, but not all, of the other discrepancies found on my own dime.  If it had been excessive I could have walked away just out the pre-buy expense (my seller didn't require a deposit)

 

So the first word in your paragraph, NO. 

I as a seller can always say NO!  no deal, go away, naw, not happening buddy, we're done,  that's called dealing.

I want you to be as informed as possible, if you come with the bs well, next man up.

 

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Oddly...

Some weird things are bound to happen...

Paying for the PPI in advance... is a common tactic used... to make sure everything gets put back in place, and buttoned up properly....

Often, or too often, a surprise gets uncovered... the buyer becomes less than interested in completing the purchase...

The owner’s plane is somewhere uncomfortable for him... and at least needs to be put back in the condition of which it arrived....

 

Often the most challenging planes have a history that is long and ready to be discovered...

Some of the least challenging planes have been stored indoors, aren’t very old, and have been doted on...

If you are going to skip the PPI... know which plane you are buying... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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8 minutes ago, McMooney said:

So the first word in your paragraph, NO. 

I as a seller can always say NO!  no deal, go away, naw, not happening buddy, we're done,  that's called dealing.

I want you to be as informed as possible, if you come with the bs well, next man up.

 

Ah, what I thought.  As a SELLER you're not going to be so wild about giving the buyer the same terms you demanded.

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3 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Ah, what I thought.  As a SELLER you're not going to be so wild about giving the buyer the same terms you demanded.

So maybe i wasn't clear. 

I will let the buyers mechanic inspect the plane as they see fit, as long as the BUYER pays for it.  This is what i did and what i would expect of a new buyer.

any squawks  we can deal around.  We come to an agreement or we don't.

 

Not seeing how this is difficult

 

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3 minutes ago, McMooney said:

So maybe i wasn't clear. 

I will let the buyers mechanic inspect the plane as they see fit, as long as the BUYER pays for it.  This is what i did and what i would expect of a new buyer.

any squawks  we can deal around.  We come to an agreement or we don't.

 

Not seeing how this is difficult

 

Perhaps I misread...the above is reasonable.

What I find unreasonable is negotiating a price with a seller, with an agreement for the seller to fix airworthiness items, THEN beating the seller down AGAIN after the A&P conveniently finds a ton of non-airworthy items.

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Just had a PPI done. Seller advertised a great plane. MSC inspected it. Had 20 or so items squawked. 10+ were airworthiness. Another 10+ were recommended. The airworthy items amounted to 3-5AMU estimated. My concern is that the seller represented the plane as being in very good condition. Then the logs showed flight time 10h/year for 5 years. Did the seller really know their own plane with so little time flying it? 10+ airworthy items is  not trivial, folks. 


If you read the suggested contracts (ie AOPA), they try to protect the seller.  Seller fixes only airworthy things. Leaves all the other broken items that don’t make the FAA list (‘airworthy’) for the new owner to swallow. Why should I pay for a PPI that reminds the seller all the things he’s deferred, only to absorb the cost of the PPI plus all the maintenance he’s deferred. Cheap ownership only cheapens the value - airworthy or not. This wasn’t a mechanic looking for negotiating items; it was an honest and independent review that came back saying the past owner deferred maintenance or didn’t know his plane. So do I pay the original asking price? Airworthy items or not, I don’t think so. 
 

I will certainly be negotiating some things. Has anyone else had experience negotiating after a PPI?

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Negotiating after a PPI...

Is kind of like putting water back under the bridge...

Cleaning up after spilt milk...

And becoming un pregnant...

Situations that are best avoided...

How many of the long list of items were you familiar with just by looking the plane over yourself, or can see in pics?

It sounds like the seller was unable to represent the plane properly...

Not flying the plane, doesn’t usually cause such along list... unless it’s all about corrosion, rust, and rats nests... :)

Some people need to to rush into the PPI... because they have no other means to see the plane first, or read it’s logs, or talk to its mechanic...

When it comes to negotiation, you are 2amu in the hole on a plane that is not yours, and the owner says go away kid you bother me...

You are now out your 2amu, and pretty unhappy with the owner...

Expect to have your negotiations mostly complete before you go this far...

Have Every I ready to dot, every t ready to cross...

Being new to machine buying doesn’t mean make up new rules to how machine buying can be done... it is usually better to follow a well trodden path...
 

So much depends on the price of the plane, how willing the buyer is, and why you rushed so far... how interested in the plane are you...
 

Some sellers can be pretty goofy... and not know best practices for machine sales either...

You might find out you are both on the same team... struggling to get the deal done... :)
 

Obtaining the best price usually takes a modicum of finesse...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...
 

Best regards,

-a-

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33 minutes ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Just had a PPI done. Seller advertised a great plane. MSC inspected it. Had 20 or so items squawked. 10+ were airworthiness. Another 10+ were recommended. The airworthy items amounted to 3-5AMU estimated. My concern is that the seller represented the plane as being in very good condition. Then the logs showed flight time 10h/year for 5 years. Did the seller really know their own plane with so little time flying it? 10+ airworthy items is  not trivial, folks. 


If you read the suggested contracts (ie AOPA), they try to protect the seller.  Seller fixes only airworthy things. Leaves all the other broken items that don’t make the FAA list (‘airworthy’) for the new owner to swallow. Why should I pay for a PPI that reminds the seller all the things he’s deferred, only to absorb the cost of the PPI plus all the maintenance he’s deferred. Cheap ownership only cheapens the value - airworthy or not. This wasn’t a mechanic looking for negotiating items; it was an honest and independent review that came back saying the past owner deferred maintenance or didn’t know his plane. So do I pay the original asking price? Airworthy items or not, I don’t think so. 
 

I will certainly be negotiating some things. Has anyone else had experience negotiating after a PPI?

Did you review the logs BEFORE putting the plane in pre-buy?  I never considered ANY plane that I had not reviewed the logs as a first step.  If the seller hadn't/didn't want to scan the logs I moved on to the next prospect.

Personally, 10 hours a year for the last 5 years...would have been ruled out on that factor alone.

Edited by MikeOH
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2 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Just had a PPI done. Seller advertised a great plane. MSC inspected it. Had 20 or so items squawked. 10+ were airworthiness. Another 10+ were recommended. The airworthy items amounted to 3-5AMU estimated. My concern is that the seller represented the plane as being in very good condition. Then the logs showed flight time 10h/year for 5 years. Did the seller really know their own plane with so little time flying it? 10+ airworthy items is  not trivial, folks. 


If you read the suggested contracts (ie AOPA), they try to protect the seller.  Seller fixes only airworthy things. Leaves all the other broken items that don’t make the FAA list (‘airworthy’) for the new owner to swallow. Why should I pay for a PPI that reminds the seller all the things he’s deferred, only to absorb the cost of the PPI plus all the maintenance he’s deferred. Cheap ownership only cheapens the value - airworthy or not. This wasn’t a mechanic looking for negotiating items; it was an honest and independent review that came back saying the past owner deferred maintenance or didn’t know his plane. So do I pay the original asking price? Airworthy items or not, I don’t think so. 
 

I will certainly be negotiating some things. Has anyone else had experience negotiating after a PPI?

My experience was that the PPI gives you only a little bit of leverage for changing the price agreed on in the sales contract, assuming you used one.  If you look through typical sales contracts they allow either party to back out with no loss, other than earnest money paid, once any significant findings or new terms are proposed.  In other words, now that you have new information and would like to renegotiate the terms, the original agreement basically holds no water.  Some sales contracts even specify the maximum amount of time for an new terms to be agreed on, so that neither party can drag things out or stall.

Essentially, if you want the terms of the sales to be adjusted, you're basically at square one, where neither you nor the seller owe each other anything.  At that point, the seller would be perfectly free to turn around and make a sales agreement with someone else, and you'd be out the cost of the PPI and the time you've invested.

And therein lies the significance of the PPI--its primary significance is as your ticket to walk away from a plane you don't want to buy.  If you find items that are not tolerable to you, and you have to be prepared to walk away and tell yourself "that's the best 1 AMU I've ever spent on a plane".  If it is still a plane you want to buy, though, it doesn't really help renegotiating much because the seller can just walk out with no loss, whereas you've invested time and the cost of the PPI.

The first plane I looked at turned out that way, and the independent mechanic told me "I'm not supposed to say things like this, but this isn't your plane."  That was just after going over the airframe.  I thanked him for his time, paid the flat fee and told him not to bother with the engine and just button up the plane.  It sucked, but telling myself "that was the best 1 AMU I've ever spent on a plane" helped.  The second PPI I felt out negotiating fixing the dented nosegear truss.  In the end, the sellers agreed to take care of it on their own dime with their own mechanic which I was satisfied with.  Otherwise, I suspect they would have been okay with lowering the price if I fixed it myself (which would have been problematic away from home) as it's clearly an unairworthy condition, but not all "airworthiness" items are equivalent.  

Edited by jaylw314
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Gosh, I didn’t realize I didn’t know what I was doing.  Now I have to call up my previous sellers and refund them the money they discounted.  

You said you take a demo flight, if so you should find most non airworthy squawks then. You don’t need a PPI to figure out the lights don’t work, avionics don’t work, the engine doesn’t start easily or is burning oil, etc. That’s the whole point of the demo flight, to demonstrate everything works. It’s not a sightseeing flight?
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12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The buyer leaves enough of a deposit to cover the sellers cost of relocating the plane and enough to put the plane back together.  

I’ve never had a buyer stiff either party, maybe it’s a bigger deal for you guys.

Clarence

Canadians are just friendly trustworthy folks.... :D

To qualify this statement, I was born in Hamilton, Ontario.

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12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Did you review the logs BEFORE putting the plane in pre-buy?  I never considered ANY plane that I had not reviewed the logs as a first step.  If the seller hadn't/didn't want to scan the logs I moved on to the next prospect.

Personally, 10 hours a year for the last 5 years...would have been ruled out on that factor alone.

This is one of the reasons I recommend sending the logs to Laura at SWTA before any PPI is done. If the plane is all the way across the country and not easy to see then maybe send the logs to Laura before you even see the airplane in person.  I'd also get someone from MooneySpace to go look at the airplane for you. There's lots of stuff that can be done before getting into the time and expense of a PPI.

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13 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Just had a PPI done. Seller advertised a great plane. MSC inspected it. Had 20 or so items squawked. 10+ were airworthiness. Another 10+ were recommended. The airworthy items amounted to 3-5AMU estimated. My concern is that the seller represented the plane as being in very good condition. Then the logs showed flight time 10h/year for 5 years. Did the seller really know their own plane with so little time flying it? 10+ airworthy items is  not trivial, folks. 


If you read the suggested contracts (ie AOPA), they try to protect the seller.  Seller fixes only airworthy things. Leaves all the other broken items that don’t make the FAA list (‘airworthy’) for the new owner to swallow. Why should I pay for a PPI that reminds the seller all the things he’s deferred, only to absorb the cost of the PPI plus all the maintenance he’s deferred. Cheap ownership only cheapens the value - airworthy or not. This wasn’t a mechanic looking for negotiating items; it was an honest and independent review that came back saying the past owner deferred maintenance or didn’t know his plane. So do I pay the original asking price? Airworthy items or not, I don’t think so. 
 

I will certainly be negotiating some things. Has anyone else had experience negotiating after a PPI?

I just pulled out the PPI report from Don Maxwell on my first Mooney. A 1964 M20C. He noted 19 Airworthy issues totaling about $6000 to correct. I bought the airplane on his recommendation and it turned out to be a wonderful airplane. I flew it for 400 hours and sold it for what I paid for it. 

BTW... there were an additional 18 Recommended items.

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