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Gtn750xi+650xi or g500txi+gtn750xi


garuda

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Hello,

I have been following this forum for a few weeks now and I am grateful to all the contributors for sharing their knowledge.

I have just purchased a M20k 252 which has mostly the original panel with AP KFC150, hsi with flight director functioning perfectly.

I do not have budget constraints but I do not want to spend money foolishly.

If you had the choice between replacing the existing kfc155 radios with gtn750xi+gtn650xi keeping the 6 pack as it is or replacing just one of the radios with gtn750xi and adding a g500txi, what would you do?

Thank you

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I am basically doing that, adding a GTN750Xi with a 430AW for a backup and removing the King comm and a KSN 80, so all I will have are the two Garmin radios in the 750 and 430. So the answer to the question "what would you do?" is I am doing it. However, not without some concern. The 430AW has been my comm1 for several years. The "A" means it has the stronger 16W transmitter. I put that in thinking that, if i was going to fly in the flight levels I should get the best transmitter I could. Unfortunately the 430's radio has not been that great. It has a tendency to lose reception when I am at a boundary between one ATC frequency and another, or when there is big weather around. My "go to" in that event is my lowly old King comm, which nearly always comes through. So is this a radio problem or an antenna problem? We have switched the antennas around and it makes no difference. At one point the 430 went back to Garmin, which said that it did not meet spec on the bench and made some repairs. That was several years ago and it made things better but not best. At one point I was at the Garmin factory with a Mooney PPP group, it turned out there was another pilot there with a 430AW and the same problem, we asked about it but we were deflected (go talk to your installer).

Along the way I have heard and read comments that the Garmin radios just are not that good.  I don't know, a lot of times that is chatter started by competitors. Maybe it is just my particular radio. I am just telling you that I am changing to all Garmin radios with a little bit of trepidation. It is disconcerting to be at FL210 and not able to raise ATC and happens too often for me. I wish Garmin would do something about it. In all other respects the 430AW has been a great unit.

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9 hours ago, garuda said:

Hello,

I have been following this forum for a few weeks now and I am grateful to all the contributors for sharing their knowledge.

I have just purchased a M20k 252 which has mostly the original panel with AP KFC150, hsi with flight director functioning perfectly.

I do not have budget constraints but I do not want to spend money foolishly.

If you had the choice between replacing the existing kfc155 radios with gtn750xi+gtn650xi keeping the 6 pack as it is or replacing just one of the radios with gtn750xi and adding a g500txi, what would you do?

Thank you

I would fly it for a year, get used to the airplane and see what you really want and see what the avionics market brings. The first year is going to reveal any engine, prop, airframe issues that will take priority over a panel that is "functioning perfectly". Then after all of that and after you decide what you want, do it once and do it right.

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The choice between the additional functionality and awareness provided with the G500 vs. the GTN 650, which only provides GPS redundancy would be an easy decision for me.  You will love the large display and the ability to have everything on a large screen that can be divided into two sides and effectively eliminate the need for an ipad except as a backup.  Terrain, traffic, maps, flight plans,... will be right in front of you on the 500 or 750 all the time.

I do like the other option of moving to a G3X plus the GFC500.  That effectively updates almost everything in your panel to new and you will be good for many years to come.  The KFC150 will be more expensive to maintain as it continues to age and the GFC 500 has some really nice features.  You might even consider replacing the KX155 with a Garmin radio in the process (mixed feelings here, these are good radios and I still have one for my second radio but am considering replacing it during an upgrade).

With either of the Garmin displays, you can add an engine monitor.  If you don't have one, this should be considered a "must have" during your upgrade.

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Many thanks for all the contributions.

So, the consensus is that I should get a display instead of the 650 and I tend to agree.

I like the option of exploring g3x+gfc500 in lieu of g500txi. The installation cost might be the real differentiator. I will definitely check.

In fact, I agree with lancescaper about getting used to the plane first. I am however offered an exceptional deal on avionics now, which might not be available in one year time. 

Is the problem with Garmin radios mentioned by jlunseth an isolated case or has it been observed by others?

Regarding engine monitor, how does the Garmin EIS compare with a JPi900 in terms of ergonomy?

 

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12 minutes ago, garuda said:

Many thanks for all the contributions.

So, the consensus is that I should get a display instead of the 650 and I tend to agree.

I like the option of exploring g3x+gfc500 in lieu of g500txi. The installation cost might be the real differentiator. I will definitely check.

In fact, I agree with lancescaper about getting used to the plane first. I am however offered an exceptional deal on avionics now, which might not be available in one year time. 

Is the problem with Garmin radios mentioned by jlunseth an isolated case or has it been observed by others?

Regarding engine monitor, how does the Garmin EIS compare with a JPi900 in terms of ergonomy?

 

I had the JPI900 and upgraded to the Garmin EIS. I personally Like the EIS more. they both do exactly the same thing, however the garmin IMO is just cleaner. My main concern when creating my panel was simplicity. You see Don Kayes panel, and Stevens panel above, and don't get me wrong, they have gorgeous panels, but there is just so much clutters into a Mooneys panel, which is tiny compared to competing models.

The GTN750 is nice, but I doubt you'll be using it a lot with the g3x. I have a GNX375, and only use it to load an approach. everything else is done on my Ipad or the G3x. The GTN650 is a happy median between those 2. I'm not saying my panel is better than the two peoples I listed above. I just can do everything that they can do, including the G3X providing VNAV.

585130435__fiQ_FqYrIl4JDkLwy1VonPx1gcq4xQlGQ9KmSArAlgd-XwzeP9WrsMMAOwhBhQetCzeY9VLkMwqes6BFoiiOFJB8B-DITBal1_yka_XDGH5afRyXNSXsgw_0HO77T4gTduyeNQ4fK8kAZYw.thumb.jpg.afc92fdd01d280e44af2441c5c46f501.jpg

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Situation one... MFD +GTN.

With a great flight display...

Fed by a great radio...

How much value does the second great radio supply?


Situation two... Two GTNs.

With a great radio supplying needle displays...

Adding a second great radio... adds what to the flexibility?
 

Where does all that fancy flight data get displayed?

 

Realism sets in...

Stepwise addition of these proven parts gets overly expensive...

The lowest cost route might well be...

If I want my panel to look like StephenL’s panel... I may be best off going to his supplier...

Where the Hours of research has been done already to fit everything properly...

 

Future proof...

It is near impossible to plan for things that haven’t been delivered yet...
 

It is possible that Avidyne is the only box maker to make promises and come through with them within reason...

Garmin is pretty good, but their timelines are not well controlled...

Anything that involves two suppliers to work together... makes a crummy combination...

 

I’m keeping the old BK radios and six pack until I have grandchildren...   :)

Its going to be a while...
 

If needed... you have been approved to make all the changes at once... because it make sense. Saves money. And brings an awesome airframe up to the new millennium...
 

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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16 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I had the JPI900 and upgraded to the Garmin EIS. I personally Like the EIS more. they both do exactly the same thing, however the garmin IMO is just cleaner. My main concern when creating my panel was simplicity. You see Don Kayes panel, and Stevens panel above, and don't get me wrong, they have gorgeous panels, but there is just so much clutters into a Mooneys panel, which is tiny compared to competing models.

The GTN750 is nice, but I doubt you'll be using it a lot with the g3x. I have a GNX375, and only use it to load an approach. everything else is done on my Ipad or the G3x. The GTN650 is a happy median between those 2. I'm not saying my panel is better than the two peoples I listed above. I just can do everything that they can do, including the G3X providing VNAV.

585130435__fiQ_FqYrIl4JDkLwy1VonPx1gcq4xQlGQ9KmSArAlgd-XwzeP9WrsMMAOwhBhQetCzeY9VLkMwqes6BFoiiOFJB8B-DITBal1_yka_XDGH5afRyXNSXsgw_0HO77T4gTduyeNQ4fK8kAZYw.thumb.jpg.afc92fdd01d280e44af2441c5c46f501.jpg

I may be biased since I'm getting a very similar setup to @Niko182, but the advantage of getting the G3X over the G500TXI is that one can "control" the other Garmin devices and one is a display.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can pull up a flight plan on your 500, change it, and have the change reflected on the 750.  The 500 is also a lot more money.  I'm not saying there aren't other reasons to get the 500, just that you need to look at your specific use and decide what's best.

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No way would I ever trade the G500 TXi for the older G3X.  I don't care about the 2 way flight plan feature.  I haven't ever needed nor will need a feature like that.  Had Garmin thought it valuable, they would have included it in the later designed G500 TXi.  It integrates with many more boxes to provide for future unknown additions, has a brighter screen, and its software is constantly being updated to bring new surprise features to it.  With a little experience, while analog looking instruments may seem nice, they are totally unnecessary, and the tapes become automatic to read.  The G500 TXi does, however, provide one nice feature which adds better clarity to climbs and descents, and that is a needle showing V/S.

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20 hours ago, garuda said:

I like the option of exploring g3x+gfc500 in lieu of g500txi. The installation cost might be the real differentiator. I will definitely check.

Echoing @donkaye, If you're considering this, I'd strongly advise not to.

It's penny-wise, pound-foolish to think about a G3X if you're already considering putting this kind of investment into the panel.  For Don's reasons and then some, the installation cost is very negligible between the two.  Don't skimp here.  Definitely do the G500TXi if you're considering both.

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3 hours ago, donkaye said:

No way would I ever trade the G500 TXi for the older G3X.  I don't care about the 2 way flight plan feature.  I haven't ever needed nor will need a feature like that.  Had Garmin thought it valuable, they would have included it in the later designed G500 TXi.  It integrates with many more boxes to provide for future unknown additions, has a brighter screen, and its software is constantly being updated to bring new surprise features to it.  With a little experience, while analog looking instruments may seem nice, they are totally unnecessary, and the tapes become automatic to read.  The G500 TXi does, however, provide one nice feature which adds better clarity to climbs and descents, and that is a needle showing V/S.

Don, i would not be that categorical calming that tapes are automatic read, each person is wired differently, I've spend 7 years flying with tapes and could not comprehend them as fast as analog gauges,  when you see solid green on the tape you NEED to read the number to know exactly where you are in that green range. On analog needs one does not even need to shift eye focus to see that needle is pointing in the right segment of the green arc for example.  In addition motion of the needle  (first and second derivative of the position angle) is easier to absorb than frequency of the number change. I've seen GOOD number tapes designs, unfortunately Garmin design is difficult for me.

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5 hours ago, alexz said:

Don, i would not be that categorical calming that tapes are automatic read, each person is wired differently, I've spend 7 years flying with tapes and could not comprehend them as fast as analog gauges,  when you see solid green on the tape you NEED to read the number to know exactly where you are in that green range. On analog needs one does not even need to shift eye focus to see that needle is pointing in the right segment of the green arc for example.  In addition motion of the needle  (first and second derivative of the position angle) is easier to absorb than frequency of the number change. I've seen GOOD number tapes designs, unfortunately Garmin design is difficult for me.

Scan is so much easier than with the legacy instruments.  It's all done in a single glance.  Steep turns, sometimes difficult for some, can be flown to the foot with the flight path marker.  Regarding first and second derivative of the position angle, the G500 TXi has a somewhat analog version with a needle that makes climbs and descents to a given altitude absolutely as simple as a standard VSI, which is key to smooth roundouts to an altitude.  No other needles are really necessary to good IFR flying in my opinion.

Now working on some Commercial Maneuvers are easier with analog instruments because you are looking at rate of movements of the needles to make maneuvers like the Chandelle and Lazy 8 work out perfectly.  Rate of movement of number changes is more difficult.  Check out the VSI below.

 

Panel Shoing VSi.jpg

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Very happy G3x/EIS/750/gfc500 customer here.  I also went with the remote transponder and audio panel.  I'll stay out of the g500txi vs g3x debate but I will strongly vote for the 750 over the 650.  I like having another large screen and I use it for different things at different phases of the flight.  In particular I like being able to have a larger view of the flight plan when shooting approaches (upcoming way points, step downs, etc).  After flying with a 696 I didnt' want anything on my yoke anymore and I don't miss it one bit.  I also have an iPad mini panel mounted in front of the copilot.  I let my passengers "play" with that all they want.  It's been a huge hit and is also a tertiary backup if everything else blows up. 

At the $$$ you are talking, I'd throw the 750 into the "while we are at it" category and get the larger screen...iirc it was ~$5k.  My vote...large display G3x or 500txi and larger GTN...oh yeah and the GFC500 is the most amazing thing to me (but I was coming from a Century IIB with STEC30 alt hold...kind of clunky).  Keep us posted on what you do.  -K

 

 

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Many thanks for the comments and suggestions.

I apologise for the ignorance, but I would like to make sure that the g3x+g5 combination allows to remove all the 6 pack in an ifr plane.

Also, I understand that the g5 is used as a backup for the g3x. Does this mean that it has to be configured as a PFD or can it be used to display the 2nd nav in normal operation?

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31 minutes ago, garuda said:

Many thanks for the comments and suggestions.

I apologise for the ignorance, but I would like to make sure that the g3x+g5 combination allows to remove all the 6 pack in an ifr plane.

Also, I understand that the g5 is used as a backup for the g3x. Does this mean that it has to be configured as a PFD or can it be used to display the 2nd nav in normal operation?

The g5 is a approved backup for both the g3x and TXi. This will allow you to remove the 6 pack as long the 256 AI is no longer needed for the kfc AP. 
 

Back to your original question. Going with a 375/255/225 combo vs a 650/750 will leave enough cash to buy a 10 inch g3x AND gfc500 hardware. 

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If you want to see pics of your favored selections in a Mooney... the search function often turns up the latest installs...

Start by searching through the G3X stuff... there aren’t that many...

G5s have been around for a while...

GI275s have just come to market... But they are sooo... powerful...

What they all drive as far as APs go.... may require an interface box...
 

What their back-up capabilities and requirements are are listed on their respective websites...

Lots of this stuff is easily readable with just a hint of why it is needed...

Add to the stack of needs is the battery back-up that may be required...

PP thoughts only, not an instrument panel guy...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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I have actually been avidly reading mooneyspace. Still I am not sure I understand everything.

To summarize my understanding:

If I want to keep the KFC150 and add new Garmin avionics while retaining the full capabilities of the autopilot , my options are:

- G500txi + g5 

- 2 x GTI275

However, I am not sure if a g3x+gti275 combination would also work? 

 

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Garuda,

See if you can add some detail to your avatar...

If you are on the west coast,I would invite a west coast avionics guy to the conversation...

If you are in Florida, I might invite somebody else...
 

See if Mr. Baker is up on the Garmin details... @Baker Avionics...

Best regards,

-a-

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