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Best speed upgrade for 64 M20 E


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On 10/2/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pilot boy said:

I'll have to try this but I don't think my numbers are quite that good.  At that altitude and settings with the power boost on I probably do about 160/165 mph when I'm alone in the plane.

Huge difference between TAS and indicated. Use your E6B to calculate TAS. I was talking about TAS.

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On 10/2/2020 at 2:21 PM, Pilot boy said:

Okay so we pretty much are using 18/2400 for all the maneuvers as an entry starting point for cruise before stalls etc.,  lazy 8s so that seems about same.  The Chandelles you use full power?  We were having trouble controlling the plane to get max pitch up and then ending the 180 up near stall speed (70 mph) so we were going only to about 20 inches on that one.  

What settings are you using for your landings?  Short field especially.  What stripe are you aiming for?  I did my first practit short field landing in the E at 85 mph on final, about 75 over the numbers will full flaps calm wind.  That worked well and we landed on 2nd stripe.  

Chandelles are absolutely full power. It is a maximum performance climbing turn. Imagine yourself trying to get out of a canyon. As for speed on approaches, I’d agree those numbers are in the ballpark. I typically about 13” or less on final for power setting. 

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3 minutes ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

Chandelles are absolutely full power. It is a maximum performance climbing turn. Imagine yourself trying to get out of a canyon. As for speed on approaches, I’d agree those numbers are in the ballpark. I typically about 13” or less on final for power setting. 

Okay sounds good.  Yeah I know the purpose of the Chandelles are that....but the ACS doesn't state it has to be at full power anywhere and I've seen other instructors use 25 squared for Mooneys doing them so I was curious.

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Power settings during the landing phase... hmmmmm.....

If slowing down to enter the traffic pattern has you set the power around MP= 18”....

Within the TP, Somewhere around 16” Probably has you level at 90.... IAS.

At the numbers, you pull back on the throttle to begin the descent...
 

Let’s say you are about 1k’ agl...

If you want a casual descent of 300fpm...

You pull 3” of MP out from the last MP you had at the TPA...

Magically you are descending at 300fpm using the 13” mentioned above...

Expect this to leave you 100’ high since 300fpm uses up 900’ of altitude, if you work your geometry to match your descent rate...  hence the turn to base, and check your altitude at the same time... Same on final...

Wind and weight will play a significant part in adjusting power in real life... but the 1” of MP for 100fpm setting the initial descent rate is a pretty cool tool in the Mooney tool box...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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With decades of evolving modifications between the models and STCs, our birds are all over the W&B envelope. But take a good look at your setup and see if a little weight aft will help. If you can push the CG a little aft, it helps.

I don't have any precise numbers for you as far as a fwd/aft CG's effect on speed - maybe someone here will have those for you. But it does have an effect, and it's the cheapest speed mod you're going to come across. 

See if you can find ways to make the weight productive. Lead bricks would likely have the smallest footprint in your baggage bin, but they're not useful for much other than ballast or as chocks that won't float away in a monsoon. A good toolkit could save your day if you blow a tire tube or badly foul a plug on a cross country trip. One of my long term goals is to build up a small pelican case or similar with a good foam insert to hold tools securely in place. I flew back from the Outer Banks on Friday with a screwdriver, a pair of vise-grips, and the mortal remains of my baggage door hold-open latch rattling against each other in my tool bag. I was worried half to death something had just added itself to my project list until I figured that one out. 

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1 hour ago, Pasturepilot said:

 

fwd/aft CG's effect on speed - maybe someone here will have those for you. But it does have an effect, and it's the cheapest speed mod you're going to come across. 

 


 

Mooneys have their Cg in front of their Cl (center of lift).

The tail plane Provides inverted lift to hold the nose up, by pushing the tail down...

The further back the Cg is... less inverted lift on the tail is needed...

Lift causes drag... whether it is inverted or not... more lift is more drag...

 

So... by altering the Cg to the back of the envelope, Mooney pilots can minimize some aerodynamic drag, enough to be measurable...

It is going to take some good measuring skills to identify the few knots...

Combine that with a good WnB calculation, it could make a fun weekend project...
 

:)

Best regards,

-a-

 

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Best speed mods for an E model is really relative on your mission and budget.

Hands down the "best" speed mods you can do are a 201 Cowl, 201 windscreen, oil cooler relocation and brake rotation, however this is quite simply expensive. A 201 cowl, assuming you had all the parts is about 8 to 12k in labor, The 3 options you can go also end up being about 5 to 10k in parts. Also the 201 cowl requires the laser oil cooler relocation stc which adds cost and will require a 201 spinner in your prop is newer or will require a 201 prop and spinner, which again adds cost. I have all the parts for a 201 cowl and will do it one day but every time I talk about doing it I am looking at about a 15k expenditure and can not justify it.

I would say if you do a lot of single seat cross counties, a case of water in the baggage compartment is the best modifications you can make, like @carusoam said, moving the CG aft (within limit) will cause your speed to increase. It is great because it cost ~4 dollars and comes in ~24 and ~32 pound varieties, plus you will never be thirsty. If water is not your thing, simply locating some weight, friends, pets, and putting them in the back will have a positive effect on speed provided you stay within limit.

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11 hours ago, Pasturepilot said:

One of my long term goals is to build up a small pelican case or similar with a good foam insert to hold tools securely in place. I flew back from the Outer Banks on Friday with a screwdriver, a pair of vise-grips, and the mortal remains of my baggage door hold-open latch rattling against each other in my tool bag. I was worried half to death something had just added itself to my project list until I figured that one out. 

That's a good idea.   The little satchel that I've been using for a while is getting too full.  It does weigh the equivalent of a lead brick though.   Having more space for heavy things seems a great idea.  

What about moving the battery back there?  One downside I can imagine is needing to run two gargantuan copper cables back forward of the firewall.   29 lbs at 120" would move the CG aft quite a bit.   Has anyone done this in an older Mooney?  The cables would weigh at least 10 lbs, eating up useful load.  Random thoughts.

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4 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

That's a good idea.   The little satchel that I've been using for a while is getting too full.  It does weigh the equivalent of a lead brick though.   Having more space for heavy things seems a great idea.  

What about moving the battery back there?  One downside I can imagine is needing to run two gargantuan copper cables back forward of the firewall.   29 lbs at 120" would move the CG aft quite a bit.   Has anyone done this in an older Mooney?  The cables would weigh at least 10 lbs, eating up useful load.  Random thoughts.

I moved the battery behind the baggage compartment.  The cable did not weigh all that much.  a couple pounds.  I had a really forward cg before that though.  could not trim below 85 mph with full flaps and just me with less than half fuel.  Now it has plenty of nose up trim down to 70 as well as being a little better in cruise.

 

Mark

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Battery in my plane was moved to the rear when the 3 blade prop (16 additional pounds) was added.  If the battery was not moved, one or two in the front seats and no baggage would have always been out of CG forward.  Right on the edge now with one or two in the front with no baggage. It is pretty stable in pitch with a forward CG, good for us old guys not using the autopilot.

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3 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

Battery in my plane was moved to the rear when the 3 blade prop (16 additional pounds) was added.  If the battery was not moved, one or two in the front seats and no baggage would have always been out of CG forward.  Right on the edge now with one or two in the front with no baggage. It is pretty stable in pitch with a forward CG, good for us old guys not using the autopilot.

Please, could someone post schematics  (+FOTO) for rebuilding. What  approximately was budget?

 

Thanks you in advance,

 

Milos

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2 minutes ago, brndiar said:

Please, could someone post schematics  (+FOTO) for rebuilding. What  approximately was budget?

 

Thanks you in advance,

 

Milos

Easiest way is to get the battery box and mount for an E.  I used #0 wire but #2 is fine according to AC43.13.  Run it along the pilot side wall and tie it into the master solenoid on the firewall.  Get a copy of AC43.13 for details and you will have no problem  I don't have any photos of when I did it and it is pretty difficult to get to the finer point for photos.  If I take it apart I will get some shots.

 

Mark

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:00 PM, Yourpilotincommand said:

Chandelles are absolutely full power. It is a maximum performance climbing turn. Imagine yourself trying to get out of a canyon. As for speed on approaches, I’d agree those numbers are in the ballpark. I typically about 13” or less on final for power setting. 

I just did my Commercial in my 252. We didn't do anything at full power except take off. All "max power" maneuvers were done at 65% power or about 23". When I went for the check ride, I told the DBE that we'd use 65% as max power for purposes of the test. He said he had over 8000 hours in Mooneys and would have suggested the same.

Granted the 252 is a little different than the M20E, but the ACS doesn't require absolute max power for any of the maneuvers.

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19 hours ago, AerostarDriver said:

Best speed mods for an E model is really relative on your mission and budget.

Hands down the "best" speed mods you can do are a 201 Cowl, 201 windscreen, oil cooler relocation and brake rotation, however this is quite simply expensive. A 201 cowl, assuming you had all the parts is about 8 to 12k in labor, The 3 options you can go also end up being about 5 to 10k in parts. Also the 201 cowl requires the laser oil cooler relocation stc which adds cost and will require a 201 spinner in your prop is newer or will require a 201 prop and spinner, which again adds cost. I have all the parts for a 201 cowl and will do it one day but every time I talk about doing it I am looking at about a 15k expenditure and can not justify it.

I would say if you do a lot of single seat cross counties, a case of water in the baggage compartment is the best modifications you can make, like @carusoam said, moving the CG aft (within limit) will cause your speed to increase. It is great because it cost ~4 dollars and comes in ~24 and ~32 pound varieties, plus you will never be thirsty. If water is not your thing, simply locating some weight, friends, pets, and putting them in the back will have a positive effect on speed provided you stay within limit.

Okay I travel for work (flying x country solo) and carry about 70 lbs of luggage and it worked well this last week to load that into the baggage area and back seat so I'll have to keep experimenting with weights back there.  I have the w and b loaded into foreflight so it's easy to calculate and stay within limits.

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On 10/4/2020 at 12:03 PM, carusoam said:


 

Mooneys have their Cg in front of their Cl (center of lift).

The tail plane Provides inverted lift to hold the nose up, by pushing the tail down...

The further back the Cg is... less inverted lift on the tail is needed...

Lift causes drag... whether it is inverted or not... more lift is more drag...

 

So... by altering the Cg to the back of the envelope, Mooney pilots can minimize some aerodynamic drag, enough to be measurable...

It is going to take some good measuring skills to identify the few knots...

Combine that with a good WnB calculation, it could make a fun weekend project...
 

:)

Best regards,

-a-

 

I've got my E weight and balance fully loaded into foreflight (manually from my paper w and b POH) so calculating different setups is very easy.  I tried flying yesterday with baggage in the back and it certainly helped the plane trim out easily.  (Normally it's harder for me to control trim when I'm by myself) and I probably did gain a few knots.  Not sure since I had a tail wind, but i was averaging about 155 knots at 8500 and with the mixture leaned to 8.4 gph.  50 LOP or so.  

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On 10/5/2020 at 11:21 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I just did my Commercial in my 252. We didn't do anything at full power except take off. All "max power" maneuvers were done at 65% power or about 23". When I went for the check ride, I told the DBE that we'd use 65% as max power for purposes of the test. He said he had over 8000 hours in Mooneys and would have suggested the same.

Granted the 252 is a little different than the M20E, but the ACS doesn't require absolute max power for any of the maneuvers.

On another note... I have a very hard time to get a power on stall at full power :) so I tell my CFI or would be DPE that we’ll do one at 18”.  Mine will just hang on the prop at seemingly vertical pitch attitude and hard right rudder. I’m too afraid to get myself into a spin. 
 

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1 hour ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

On another note... I have a very hard time to get a power on stall at full power :) so I tell my CFI or would be DPE that we’ll do one at 18”.  Mine will just hang on the prop at seemingly vertical pitch attitude and hard right rudder. I’m too afraid to get myself into a spin. 
 

Yep, same.

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7 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

Years back, an instructor wanted me to demonstrate a full power on stall with my IO-550 powered F33A.  Really! Yep. Really? Yep. Snug that belt down and hold on! Didn't ask for a 2nd.

You're a braver man than I. I fired an instructor for a similar situation.

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2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I love it! I'll bet it's as fast as most J's.

Yep, I sold it a couple years ago after picking up a new O3.  I held onto it for about 6 months, but found that it wasn't fair to the aircraft not to fly it, and I could tell that maintaining it without flying it much wouldn't be a good thing.

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The best speed mod for the money in my opinion is pilot proficiency and living close to the airport!  Plan for the best altitude/temp/TAS and GS. Take off and turn toward not just your destination but the the fix in the pattern at the destination that cuts off a few miles.  Especially on routine routes it turns into a game to shave off a minute or 2.  Enjoy the ride and love the one your with!

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The best speed mod is a a few things....

An alarm clock. Doesn't matter which kind. You get up and leave a bit earlier...

A well-developed flow of the tasks to get from the airport arrival to off the ground in minimum time without skipping anything important. This is huge. How long does it take to (safely) plan your flight, get your briefing, do the walkaround, load gear, start up, taxi, runup, off, and on course.

Cruise climbing...

And a similar set of efficiencies on arrival.

Now I realize I am being a bit flippant, but I believe there is a lot of truth to it. You may get a knot or two here or there, or 5+ with an expensive 201 windshield, but the above mods will beat those.  

Edited by Immelman
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