2 questions

[eman1200]

1) no glide ratio is mentioned in my POH ('75 F).   for shoots and giggles I checked the TCDS, nothing there either.  where, other than "I heard it on the internet" or "that's what they tell me at the mooney gatherings", does one find this info?

 

2) are there threads on the impact of a non-retractable step on gear up landings anywhere?  if not, there should be.  wondering what the impact would be on both hard and soft surfaces.  I'm assuming it could snap off but my guess is it wouldn't be until after it altered your landing in some way.

thanks

[David Lloyd]

Haven't seen the results of a Mooney, but a Bonanza gear up on asphalt generally grinds the bottom of the step, not breaking it off.

 

[1964-M20E]

This is in my 67F POH. Conservatively  12:1 @100mph IAS and prop stopped.  Go up and play idle engine, set up your glide and go from full prop RPM to minimum prop RPM and you will feel the difference.

 

[eman1200]

This is in my 67F POH. Conservatively  12:1 @100mph IAS and prop stopped.  Go up and play idle engine, set up your glide and go from full prop RPM to minimum prop RPM and you will feel the difference.
 

Thanks. I’m asking more from a ‘examiner asking me how I know my glide ratio if it’s not in the POH’ on a checkride perspective.

[David Lloyd]

You got me wondering since I am getting a flight review next month.  In the C handbook, that same chart appears on page 6-4 right after the takeoff and landing distances. 

I see other speeds listed but not best angle of climb.  Anywhere?

[eman1200]

11 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

You got me wondering since I am getting a flight review next month.  In the C handbook, that same chart appears on page 6-4 right after the takeoff and landing distances. 

I see other speeds listed but not best angle of climb.  Anywhere?

do you have a climb performance chart?  mine shows climb performance #s using Vx and Vy, but no glide ratio info like the chart above.

[David Lloyd]

e,

The download section has POHs for the 1977 C (really 1976 & on) and 1975 E that both show the glide chart as above.  Curiously, the same years for the F do not show the chart.

I will look at the charts for the F to see Vx and Vy.  Thanks.

Examiner?  Commercial license?

[jaylw314]

AFAIK engine out glide ratio was not something required for type certification the old way (not sure if it's required in part 23 certification more recently).  So if your examiner asks you where you'd find engine out glide ratio data if it's not in the POH, you'd tell him you figured it out by practicing engine out emergencies.

Almost all Mooney's have about a 12:1 glide ratio.  It's easier to remember as 2 nm for every 1000'

[eman1200]

44 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

e,

The download section has POHs for the 1977 C (really 1976 & on) and 1975 E that both show the glide chart as above.  Curiously, the same years for the F do not show the chart.

I will look at the charts for the F to see Vx and Vy.  Thanks.

Examiner?  Commercial license?

commercial.  I think I'd rather tell him "it's not in the POH" than "I got it from another plane of different year/weight/body dimension/etc...", even if that kind of is how I got it.

[Marauder]

commercial.  I think I'd rather tell him "it's not in the POH" than "I got it from another plane of different year/weight/body dimension/etc...", even if that kind of is how I got it.

PM your email and I will send you the Mooney MAPA guide on things that might help you. I thought my 75F has a glide ratio in the POH. I’ll look at it later today and see if I have anything.

The MAPA guide shows a 2nm per 1000’ glide at the appropriate glide speed for the model flown. The key to reaching anywhere near the 2nm/1000’ is making sure you nail down the appropriate best glide speed.


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[AIREMATT]

My 67C Owners Manual has the same chart. Windmilling 2:1 as mentioned, Prop at low RPM setting, 2.5:1 glide ratio.

[carusoam]

So...

1) We have the POH... that lists 12:1
2) We have the Noggin Math that is quick and dirty with 10:1

3) Back to the POH for proper procedure regarding drag reduction...

4) Find where Chuck did his experiments using his M20J... find him @cnoe...

5) Modern aviators use glide rings to skip the math all together...

7) know the best glide speed and the glide ratio are dependent on landing weight.... which changes airspeed about 10kias from max to min...

6) The procedure is the important part...

including going down wind to cover distance...

plan landing into the wind...

Get slow as possible when landing...

Avoid trees...

 

The other question....   you have a step... that is extended... pay attention to your flying... your life depends on it... don’t be thinking about steps, antennas or other things you can’t do anything about... 

Hard, paved surfaces are better than soft un paved surfaces... the steel parts of the step stand up pretty well, but the damage that occurs if it gets ripped out will be big...

Objective... land smoothly, dissipate energy over distance.... the focus is your survival...

Be nice... hand the keys to your favorite insurance guy...

If everything goes well, you will want insurance for the next Mooney...
 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Just now, AIREMATT said:

My 67C Owners Manual has the same chart. Windmilling 2:1 as mentioned, Prop at low RPM setting, 2.5:1 glide ratio.

Matt did you lose a digit on there? (2 or 12)  

-a-

[AIREMATT]

Sorry, no.

2nm/1,000ft Windmilling

2.5nm/1,000ft Low Rpm setting

[carusoam]

Thanks Matt!

I got confused by the similar numbers, and needed the units...

Thanks for filling that in.

Nest regards,

-a-

[eman1200]

59 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

PM your email and I will send you the Mooney MAPA guide on things that might help you. I thought my 75F has a glide ratio in the POH. I’ll look at it later today and see if I have anything.

The MAPA guide shows a 2nm per 1000’ glide at the appropriate glide speed for the model flown. The key to reaching anywhere near the 2nm/1000’ is making sure you nail down the appropriate best glide speed.


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Thanks.  I'm pretty sure we're using the same POH, but I'd look at what mapa has to say.

[eman1200]

24 minutes ago, carusoam said:

So...

1) We have the POH... that lists 12:1
2) We have the Noggin Math that is quick and dirty with 10:1

3) Back to the POH for proper procedure regarding drag reduction...

4) Find where Chuck did his experiments using his M20J... find him @cnoe...

5) Modern aviators use glide rings to skip the math all together...

7) know the best glide speed and the glide ratio are dependent on landing weight.... which changes airspeed about 10kias from max to min...

6) The procedure is the important part...

including going down wind to cover distance...

plan landing into the wind...

Get slow as possible when landing...

Avoid trees...

 

The other question....   you have a step... that is extended... pay attention to your flying... your life depends on it... don’t be thinking about steps, antennas or other things you can’t do anything about... 

Hard, paved surfaces are better than soft un paved surfaces... the steel parts of the step stand up pretty well, but the damage that occurs if it gets ripped out will be big...

Objective... land smoothly, dissipate energy over distance.... the focus is your survival...

Be nice... hand the keys to your favorite insurance guy...

If everything goes well, you will want insurance for the next Mooney...
 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

best regards,

-a-

this is almost exactly what I'm NOT looking for, not to mention your bullet point #1 is wrong.

 

[gsxrpilot]

Best of luck on the check ride. I just did mine and enjoyed it quite a bit... but only after it got started. I was a wreck anticipating it the week prior. 

My examiner asked about glide ratio during the check ride just after doing an engine out drill. A quick response of "approximately 12:1 so I estimate 2nm per 1000 ft." was a satisfactory answer and we moved on. We're obviously not pulling out the POH to verify while in flight.

 

[eman1200]

Best of luck on the check ride. I just did mine and enjoyed it quite a bit... but only after it got started. I was a wreck anticipating it the week prior. 
My examiner asked about glide ratio during the check ride just after doing an engine out drill. A quick response of "approximately 12:1 so I estimate 2nm per 1000 ft." was a satisfactory answer and we moved on. We're obviously not pulling out the POH to verify while in flight.
 

Thanks. I’m a nervous wreck. Mostly because I float quite a bit or bounce my power off 180’s. Otherwise I’m good to go.

[David Lloyd]

After being instrument rated for about 10 years, I got the commercial license to sharpen my knowledge and knock off the cobwebs. I was right at the begining of a 20 year string of 200 hour plus of flying.  Went to a ground class taught by Joe Kilough. You might remember Joe as he instructed and was a DE, first at Wilgrove and later at JQF.  Missed two questions on the test, both helicopter questions that were there for some unknown reason.  Joe gave me the checkride also.  Good times.

Good luck on your ride.

[Marauder]

Thanks.  I'm pretty sure we're using the same POH, but I'd look at what mapa has to say.

I went through my POH and was surprised to find NADA on glide ratios. It took me a while to find the best glide speeds for 2300 and 2740.


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[carusoam]

Proof that M20Fs won’t ever need to glide...   

No wonder these make popular forever-planes...

Best regards,

-a-

[BDPetersen]

Saw M20F after gear up on an asphalt runway. As I recall the fixed step remained intact and saved flap from damage.

[Bob E]

I'm a member of the gear-up club:  1994 in the same plane I own now.  The step doesn't extend until the engine stops (that is, until there is basically no vacuum to keep the step raised), so the step is the least of your concerns in a gear-up situation.

The experience was like landing on a runway paved with empty beer cans:  lots of clatter.  I had no idea what happened until the plane skidded to a stop.  Took about 15 seconds to register.  Very strange sensation to walk from the wing to the pavement without having to take a step down.  We jacked up the aircraft, lowered the gear, put on a used prop after getting an ok to ferry the aircraft to my FBO 30 minutes away, and flew it out of there.  The engine needed to be replaced, and the pavement scraped off the transponder antenna too; no damage to flaps.  I used the insurance money toward a replacement engine and a paint job.  That replacement engine lasted me until last year, so I'm now on engine #3.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Bob E

[eman1200]

I'm a member of the gear-up club:  1994 in the same plane I own now.  The step doesn't extend until the engine stops (that is, until there is basically no vacuum to keep the step raised), so the step is the least of your concerns in a gear-up situation.
The experience was like landing on a runway paved with empty beer cans:  lots of clatter.  I had no idea what happened until the plane skidded to a stop.  Took about 15 seconds to register.  Very strange sensation to walk from the wing to the pavement without having to take a step down.  We jacked up the aircraft, lowered the gear, put on a used prop after getting an ok to ferry the aircraft to my FBO 30 minutes away, and flew it out of there.  The engine needed to be replaced, and the pavement scraped off the transponder antenna too; no damage to flaps.  I used the insurance money toward a replacement engine and a paint job.  That replacement engine lasted me until last year, so I'm now on engine #3.

Yikes. Although I don’t have a vacuum step, mine is bolted on. Doesn’t retract.