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Opinions wanted: Buying a project airplane


coinneach

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19 hours ago, coinneach said:

BTW, this is the airplane in question.

I talked to the seller this evening. In addition to the issues posted in the ad, the DME is inop and the KX-155s have a few dead LCD segments. Neither of those is unusual, but it's more stuff that needs fixed. He says the best offer he's got so far was $10K, but that fell through due to the missing logbooks.

We're planning to meet at CHD on Saturday. I figure it doesn't cost anything but a couple hours of my time to check it out and see if it's worth saving.

Take $5K in cash; offer him $4K...go up to the $5K if you have to:D

I think he's probably getting to just wanting it gone...the guy in his face that can put cash in his hand could be you!

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2 hours ago, Skydancer2992 said:

A couple of months ago a Mooney was on Ebay for $9999. The only thing wrong with it was a corroded wing spar.

Great parts plane, I thought, if only there were a complete set of wings available, and of course, the time and logistics.

The plane sold in about 24 hours.

Couple months ago I saw a complete '57 Bo on ASO, had been sitting since, IIRC, 1993. The seller/broker was asking $25K. It sold, no idea if they got asking price for it.

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13 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

You guys are WAY oversimplifying this , This is a project that can easily take 10 years to finish , if ever.... If you like to tinker , and have unlimited time , it may keep you young for a while....   If you are in it to fly , buy a cheap flying C

When you spend most of your time cutting them up, maybe it’s harder to imagine someone wanting to to save one.

Its still a project worth considering.

Clarence 

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Interesting situation...

I liked my M20C...

I thought updating the engine with the IO360 would make a great idea...

But, having an O360 already...

Made that change a bit more expensive....

If I didn’t have an engine already... I would be looking to see the difference in cost between the two options...

  • O360
  • IO360 + STC...

For fun, find Doc John’s discussion of how long it took to build his M20F...

It may have taken a decade...

Forever planes take decades to improve...

Hmmmmm...  MS has recently celebrated being around for a decade...

Yesterday, somebody dug out my first post... From About a decade Ago...
 

Hopefully we have more decades to go....

:)

Best regards,

-a-

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6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I thought updating the engine with the IO360 would make a great idea...

But, having an O360 already...

I've flown both (in Skyhawks and Archers), and honestly, I prefer the carb. Hate working on them, but find them easier to start and run.

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My preference went to fuel injection...

Having a decent engine monitor, you can see how each of six cylinders is actually working...

In the case of the IO360, each of the four cylinders... :)

Both fuel delivery systems require upkeep... 

The FI’d engine has the ability to run more efficiently, fuel use wise....

Running LOP, the engines stay pretty clean inside too...
 

Lots of discussions around here about maintenance on both systems...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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1 hour ago, coinneach said:

I've flown both (in Skyhawks and Archers), and honestly, I prefer the carb. Hate working on them, but find them easier to start and run.

I find the fuel injected 200hp IO-360 an easy engine to manage one you understand that if the engine is running on the ground it is too rich. I lean until effectively any increase in power equals roughness and then go a hair richer to smooth out the roughness. 

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I can speak to  this topic with the wisdom of experience.   I purchased my 68 F model  after it had been sitting in a hangar in Dallas, Texas 26 years in pieces.   I hired Russell Stallings to drive up and do a pre-buy inspection. He took the airplane apart more than it already was a part.   It had 1975 hours total time, no damage history,  no corrosion issues,  and had an intact engine that had been rebuilt to factory specifications 20 years earlier and never flown subsequently with a RaJay turbo.  Russell  Stallings reported that it was a "nice airplane" and  would be a good basis for a project airplane.   With his recommendation I purchased the airplane.  Initially  the Mooney factory service center wanted to  do the restoration but then they subsequently suggested that I  make it flyable from where it was rather than truck it to the factory.

I tried to do this project from a distance  as I live in the Boston area.   I hired two mechanics who turned out to be thieves and scoundrels.   I ultimately had to take the airplane away from them and take apart everything they touched.    

I rented a hanger in Dallas and started again, but this time I had the assistance of an excellent sheet metal mechanic (from Gulfstream) and a DER from Eurocopter along with two IA's and an A&P.  Dallas Air Salvage called me about a salvaged 1998 Ovation with 400 hrs and I bought many parts from that plane.  The project became the transformation of a 1968 F into a modern airplane.  In many ways it is the best of both worlds, the efficiency of an F in a very modern configuration.  The project took 12 years.  

It would have been much easier if I had known how complex a project I had started.  It also would have been a whole lot easier if I had reliable people from the start.  Unfortunately,  not many have the skills required of such an endeavor.   Once you get started, you will want to make mods and upgrades.  Count on needing the time and money to do them.  The Mooney platform is a great project airplane, provided the airframe has no issues, has great bones and is structurally sound.  Then, take it all apart completely, know what you have and start with a clean airframe.  That is the only way you will know what you have.  Consider everything about the airframe to be suspect and in need of verification.  Once you have it completely apart, you may want to consider what you need to do to do the gross weight increase available to those Mooneys that have a section of the cage strengthened.  Mooney engineers would be needed for this and this may also not be feasible.  

I made many changes along the way.  The structural cage was changed using my DER to look like the new airframes (See cabin picture below) eliminating the large inverted Y found in the vintage planes, and installation of an instrument panel bow to allow for an Ovation style panel installation.  The airframe was re-skinned from the baggage compartment forward, new firewall, J model cowling, RaJay Turbo, Ovation Interior, modern ventilation from a NACA duct in the dorsal fin, on-board Oxygen, long range tanks, speed brakes, Ovation lights in wings, access to O2 bottle through baggage compartment...the list goes on.  

It was a Lindy Award winner at Oshkosh in 2019 and Outstanding Mooney in 2018.  It can be done, but plan fist, go in with your eyes open, know who the people are that will be doing the work and be sure that you and everyone else involved is committed to seeing the project through to its end.  This is a project that requires persistence, time, money and available parts and skills.  It would be great if you have the skills to do much of the work, with you A&P's oversight and sign-off.  You will learn a lot and develop skills you do not have now, which you will use as you own your forever airplane.  Consider it the cost of education...

 

cabin interior.jpg

Inside-tail.jpg

Mooneyspace pic Oshkosh 1.jpeg

Mooneyspace pic Oshkosh 2.jpeg

Mooneyspace pic panel.jpeg

Mooneyspace pic Interior.jpeg

Mooneyspace pic Interior 2.jpeg

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 I guess the ones I put back in the air , don't count ,  


I guess that assumption from Doc comes from the fact that all we ever see in your hands are saws...

21aa2ff7790d9cf4cc218fe6be1284f6.jpg

And doesn’t help that you’re know as the “Grim Reaper”. How about we come up with a new name for you? Maybe something like the “Mooney Whisperer”?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 


I guess that assumption from Doc comes from the fact that all we ever see in your hands are saws...

21aa2ff7790d9cf4cc218fe6be1284f6.jpg

And doesn’t help that you’re know as the “Grim Reaper”. How about we come up with a new name for you? Maybe something like the “Mooney Whisperer”?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

I like Reaper ... 

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3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Great thinking, Doc!
 

Note for coinn...

Be on the look-out for a tornado broken M20C or E...
 

This may have some valuable parts for your project if it has left the engine and prop intact...

Tornado season has been incredibly long this year... many hangars have collapsed on their contents...

Best regards,

-a-

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Just got back from checking out 88N. @N201MKTurbo, Mike says thanks for putting the tire under the tail. Guessing 172 28A is yours?

The bad: most of the interior plastics need replaced (either badly broken or missing altogether). Surface corrosion on the flap, gear, and seat handles. Right seat was very reluctant to slide back, even at 10o nose up and my 210 pounds pushing on it; rails are probably gooped up. Battery removed so couldn't check lights, pitot, or radios. Left tire went flat sometime since he last checked it. Cabin and baggage door deals are trash. Ding in the right wing leading edge, and the aforementioned ding on the left stab (windstorm blew a barrel into it).

The meh: ASI primarily marked in MPH, normal for 1968. Donuts are probably due for replacement (I don't know how to eyeball this one - if they were motorcycle tires, I'd replace them just based on appearance). No heading bug on the DG. Cowl flaps are permanently half open, no push-pull in the cockpit. Grungy sumps (great band name!). ELT is expired.

The good: tires actually have good tread. Newish KT-76A. Both CDIs look almost new. Controls are free and smooth. Flaps deploy and stow smoothly. Good brake pressure.

I can easily do the interior repairs and cleanup myself, but baby needs a lot of TLC.

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Coinne,

That is loooking pretty good compared to what an original Mooney of that year would look like...

Somebody was taking care updating it...
 

Some of the fuel leaks are simple swap out the screw, or fuel sample valve...

But... if rebuilding the plane to new conditions... expect doing a reseal as part of the opportunity...
 

A few MSers have done this themselves... not a highly technical project, but plenty of good work to go with that...

Find Alex’s thread around here...

Alex was a young gun, with ambition to modernize an M20C/D... he has documented much of the work he completed over the years...

Alex is still around here... somewhere...

Best regards,

-a-

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