coinneach Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 For my first post in this august gathering, I'm going to ask something that's probably guaranteed to make some (OK, most) of you ask what is my major malfunction. I have one hour, right seat, not logged, in an M20F about 10 years ago. Been wanting an M20 of my own ever since (TBF, I've been wanting one since the first one I saw in the early '70s). I also have this thing about taking in broken people/animals/vehicles and making them right, so I'm looking pretty hard at a 1968 C that's been on and off TAP for some time. The seller pulled the engine, accs, and prop last year for a homebuilt project; it's been sitting on its tail on the ramp at CHD ever since. It still has the engine mount, cowl, baffles, and exhaust. Everything else FWF is gone. It actually has a six-pack, not a shotgun panel. The radio stack is old. ADF and PC are inop (neither of which bothers me). No GPS, no mention of ADS-B so I assume it's not equipped. Interior and paint fair-ish. Out of annual since August 2019. Seller is asking $12K. I'm finding a few fair-to-middling O-360-A1Ds, mostly prop strikes (but the crank runout is .001, rly!) with accessories for about $10-15K. Used props are, weirdly, harder to find. I asked the A&P who maintains a friend's airplane for his thoughts. "He should probably pay you to take it off his hands. You're looking at least $40K just to get it back in the air." Vref puts a clean M20C with no outstanding issues at $44K. So am I crazy to be seriously considering this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Welcome aboard Coinn... Not crazy to consider it... But know what it entails... It would help, if we knew what your objective is... rebuilding a Mooney to save Money... probably isn’t your goal, is it? Rebuilding a plane comes with challenges... that rebuilding all those other things doesn’t... FAA procedures... If you have rebuilt a 60s muscle car and took a 5k car and spent 50k on it... to get it back to a new 60s vehicle... you are on the right track... We have Three sources Of used Mooney parts around here... Often there are two types of people... plane builders, and plane flyers... very few have both skills... Rebuilding an old Mooney that is missing so many parts... may take years... The lowest cost method is buying a plane that is flying today... If you are looking to turn a wreck into a brand new plane custom to you... this is very expensive... but, it has been done around here before... Planes that sit outside, uncovered, and open to the elements, can self destruct... so... expect to perform a good inspection on the old bones... some of those bones may have been sitting exposed to rain water... for a long period of time... Take pics and post them if you want... An empty plane shell may be in the ballpark of a dozen amu... an engine for it may be 25amu... a prop may be another dozen amu... modern instrument panels are starting around 50amus.... If you want paint and a leather interior... your low cost project can easily exceed 100AMU... The hardest part... The work you want to do, and may be capable of, requires an aircraft mechanic to oversee... he is the guy that is trained and has a license to go with that skill set... so start looking for a mechanic that can help you get to where you want to go... The last thing you want to to do... is start buying things before you have your plan together... Getting the wrong engine, because a part number is off... would be an expensive faux pas... Once everything is rebuilt... there are annual inspections for air worthiness to contend with... your work will get reviewed again each time a new mechanic sees it at annual... When people buy airplanes... they often send it through the pre-purchase inspection process... to make sure they are not buying a Franken-plane that was assembled from less than proper parts... Good luck whichever way you go... Compare your list of costs to any similar M20C that is flying today... then decide what is best for you... PP thoughts only, stuff I learned after I bought my nearly run-out M20C.... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Asking $12K and getting it are different. If the airframe is sound and you have the skills required and you have a cooperative A&P, go for it. You can’t buy a kit plane from Van’s for the money you’re talking about and you still have to to ALL of the work. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 I agree with your friend's A&P. At this point, the owner has three choices. Fix it, not likely. Donate it to an aviation school for a tax deduction. Sell it to you. Basically the highest value is the tax deduction. I can't see given the paucity of the owner's finances that the tax deduction can worth more than 4 thousand. So there is your value. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 If you're looking for a project, then this is a great option. I agree with @GeeBee that you should get the shell for closer to $5K. BUT... if you're looking for a cheap way to get into a Mooney so you can have a Mooney to fly... this is not it. Spending the $44K on a flying Mooney with a current annual will be quite a bit cheaper. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 If you have an A&P and lots of free time have at it. See if you can get the airframe in the low single digits, it's scrap and not worth a dime more. If any of these aren't in effect (A&P, time, minimal acquisition cost) run, don't walk away. There truly are no bargains in aviation. If you really want a project and you aren't an A&P scratch build an airplane from plans. It will keep you busy for years and might even give you enough legible time to get that A&P. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 8 hours ago, carusoam said: If you have rebuilt a 60s muscle car and took a 5k car and spent 50k on it... to get it back to a new 60s vehicle... you are on the right track... Guilty! 8 hours ago, carusoam said: Planes that sit outside, uncovered, and open to the elements, can self destruct... so... expect to perform a good inspection on the old bones... some of those bones may have been sitting exposed to rain water... for a long period of time... I've seen airplanes sitting out for far longer, and rain hasn't been a thing here in PHX for quite a while, but I see your point. I asked the A&P about corrosion and critters, he didn't seem worried about the former. The donuts and tires, though, probably need replaced. And obviously every centimeter of wiring needs checked out. 8 hours ago, carusoam said: An empty plane shell may be in the ballpark of a dozen amu... an engine for it may be 25amu... a prop may be another dozen amu... modern instrument panels are starting around 50amus.... If you want paint and a leather interior... your low cost project can easily exceed 100AMU... I don't really need a new panel. I've flown nothing but steam gauges and I have my iPad. I'd ideally pull the ADF and transponder and install a GNX-whatever in the hole, but that's not critical. Same with paint and interior. 4 hours ago, M20Doc said: If the airframe is sound and you have the skills required and you have a cooperative A&P, go for it. You can’t buy a kit plane from Van’s for the money you’re talking about and you still have to to ALL of the work. I don't have the A&P cert, but I was a mech in the AF long ago. I also do all my own motorcycle wrenching and have rebuilt a few old cars. My guy is OK with "owner-assisted" as long as said owner isn't a complete idiot. An RV-9 has been on my radar for years, but I shelved that idea for exactly the reasons you mention. 2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: BUT... if you're looking for a cheap way to get into a Mooney so you can have a Mooney to fly... this is not it. Spending the $44K on a flying Mooney with a current annual will be quite a bit cheaper. Cheap and flying in same sentence, now that's comedy. There's a couple other local Mooneys for sale, but the $42K bird is a '63 with original panel and radios, and the other is listed at $47,777 by someone who obviously knows nothing about the plane (e.g. talking about it has new shocks and struts, like it's a '92 Corolla or something). Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Sincerely appreciate your time and knowledge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Pilot Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Big undertaking, but you are considering all of the right things and bring solid mechanical skills with you. Best of luck and post picture! Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47U Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 34 minutes ago, coinneach said: I don't have the A&P cert, but I was a mech in the AF long ago. That’s a start... what career field? Jets? Hydro? E/E? Crew Chief/Aero Repair? How long ago? Recips? That’s key to have an A&P onboard to approve your work. Demonstrating to your mechanic your ability to adhere to airworthiness standards is paramount. I like the idea of a ‘rebuild log’ with hours and activities. You could easily log enough time to qualify for the A&P. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 I'll +1 that it's not worth anything close to $12k if it's missing half the things you mention. Usually shells like that get abandoned or hauled away for scrap/parts. There are two more derelicts near you at DVT, a dash model (M20) that is more or less complete with wooden wings, and an E model that is missing engine/prop and various panels. They're parked near each other on the north side, along with a mostly complete but ratty V-tail Bonanza and a Luscombe. They're all derelicts and haven't moved since I've had my airplane at DVT. The M20 is actually in reasonably decent shape and it looks like somebody had just finished putting a lot of work into the wooden wings when it got abandoned. I keep hoping somebody gives it a home, but it just sits there. So there isn't a shortage of project Mooneys out there, even fairly close to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 35 minutes ago, 47U said: That’s a start... what career field? Jets? Hydro? E/E? Crew Chief/Aero Repair? How long ago? Recips? That’s key to have an A&P onboard to approve your work. Demonstrating to your mechanic your ability to adhere to airworthiness standards is paramount. I like the idea of a ‘rebuild log’ with hours and activities. You could easily log enough time to qualify for the A&P. With no offence meant to the OP, but if he gets his A&P based on restoring this one Mooney which at most is a few months work the FAA needs to revisit the requirements for issuance of the A&P licence. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, M20Doc said: With no offence meant to the OP, but if he gets his A&P based on restoring this one Mooney which at most is a few months work the FAA needs to revisit the requirements for issuance of the A&P licence. Clarence No offense taken. I don't intend to go for the cert, especially based on one airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 34 minutes ago, EricJ said: There are two more derelicts near you at DVT, a dash model (M20) that is more or less complete with wooden wings, and an E model that is missing engine/prop and various panels. I was referring more to airplanes that are actually posted on TAP, ASO, Controller, etc. If the owner (abandoned or whatever) doesn't want to go through the trouble of selling, that's not a bird I want to check out anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 From reading the first post, it sounds like a C model that need and engine and propeller reinstalled. Not a huge job physically or financially. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: Your family may not share the same enthusiasm as you do. Unexpected family events demanding more of your time will pop up at some point. Or you may lose your medical. And even if you have none of those things to consider then remember the project enthusiasm is highest at the start and drops over time. If a project is too big it is no longer fun and becomes a burden. Look at all the unfinished restorations and kits that are for sale… Planes, cars, boats. My family consists of me, my 29-year-old son who doesn't really care about vehicles (doesn't even have his drivers license and has no interest in obtaining it), and our cats. I'm very familiar with scope creep. I just got my medical back in June after 8.5 years self-grounded, and I will fight like hell anything that tries to ground me again. I'm OK with not getting this bird back in the air RFN; I can deal with the great unwashed rental fleet for a little while longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 6 hours ago, M20Doc said: From reading the first post, it sounds like a C model that need and engine and propeller reinstalled. Not a huge job physically or financially. Clarence That's not technically inaccurate, but I think there's a lot more to it than just bolting on a new mill and prop. I'm just wondering whether it's worth the time and effort, which is entirely subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, coinneach said: My family consists of me, my 29-year-old son who doesn't really care about vehicles (doesn't even have his drivers license and has no interest in obtaining it), and our cats. I'm very familiar with scope creep. I just got my medical back in June after 8.5 years self-grounded, and I will fight like hell anything that tries to ground me again. I'm OK with not getting this bird back in the air RFN; I can deal with the great unwashed rental fleet for a little while longer. Congrats, You have been approved to spend your dough on a Mooney Project... It will be faster and more efficient than other project planes... The next challenge is finding a home for it so you can work on it... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 One question, one opinion: Which do you enjoy more, flying, and rebuilding is the means to get there, or taking on restoration projects? Don't pay over $5K for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 Since you're going into this endeavor with your eyes wide open, I think what you're doing is quite commendable. Too many old Mooneys are getting wrecked and written off. You're actually bringing one back. Thank you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SantosDumont Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 That shell is worth negative dollars if it’s not flying. Even scrapping it for parts would cost someone time and money to cut it up. Maybe offer $1k for it. Otherwise put your money towards something that can actually fly. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerostarDriver Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 Vintage Mooneys are corrosion magnets, pre-73 seems to be the worst of it. Even if it does not rain often, water finds a way to make it to places it should not. Attached are some photos of a Mooney wing that was being worked on by Don Maxwells shop. The airplane looked to be free of corrosion except for a very small spot but the wing was non-repairable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 51 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said: Vintage Mooneys are corrosion magnets, pre-73 seems to be the worst of it. Even if it does not rain often, water finds a way to make it to places it should not. Attached are some photos of a Mooney wing that was being worked on by Don Maxwells shop. The airplane looked to be free of corrosion except for a very small spot but the wing was non-repairable. That is not quite true... And... not quite a way to make friends... Mooneys are not magnets for corrosion. They experience corrosion issues any aluminum plane can... The pictures offered above are interesting from a metallurgical point of view, but are not representative of all Mooneys... It would be interesting to know what conditions caused that wide spread surface corrosion... Why it wasn’t cleaned up, and re-skinned... What happened to that plane..? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 5 hours ago, carusoam said: Congrats, You have been approved to spend your dough on a Mooney Project... I'ma register it under "Kid and Cats Approved LLC". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 39 minutes ago, carusoam said: What happened to that plane..? That's what I'd like to know. Looks to me like saltwater damage, maybe caught outside in a hurricane and left to dry out on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinneach Posted September 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 BTW, this is the airplane in question. I talked to the seller this evening. In addition to the issues posted in the ad, the DME is inop and the KX-155s have a few dead LCD segments. Neither of those is unusual, but it's more stuff that needs fixed. He says the best offer he's got so far was $10K, but that fell through due to the missing logbooks. We're planning to meet at CHD on Saturday. I figure it doesn't cost anything but a couple hours of my time to check it out and see if it's worth saving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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