GeeBee Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 I wanted a Battery Minder installation with airframe interface, but I want to make it convenient and neat to use. I got a 3X5 aluminum project box, modified it to include a face and a platform to mount the plugs. So far I like the results. Here are the plugs inserted Here is the cover plate with CamLocs Here is the box from the equipment bay 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Fantastic idea and execution! Are you keeping the two batteries charging/conditioning separately? I bought the Y cable, then never used it... Then my decision on where to mount the plugs went on hold... Inside vs outside... Nice to see your solution... That would make a great option for many new and not so new Mooneys... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Charging with a Y cable. and it seems to work really good. They do warn you not to use the Y cable if both batteries are not in good condition. If I want I can charge a single battery with just one plug. Top plug, battery one, bottom is battery two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 I must be a special short bus riding kinda guy. I just bought a motorcycle battery tender from a bike shop and plumbed the thing into the battery. Battery has been going for 4 or five years without a hiccup, and the airplane is always ready to fly in the long winter. Admittedly my aircraft is old, so has the 14V electric system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Steingar, that’s a short body you have there... not a bus... One of these days, she will earn forever-plane status... Economics will start to creep out the window... She’ll be adorned in things that don’t make absolute financial sense... The aroma of real leather will fill the air... Your color screen count will come out of the basement... They will be code named as baubles, for your aluminum mistress, by your wife... I heard this happens more or less when the kids are out of the house... When your grand kids are young adults, your tail number will match a special for you date, and have your initials in it... All done at the time she gets a fresh coat of paint... PP thoughts only, not a family psychologist... I can almost see the General future of MSers, by looking at their Collective past... Currently...I’m working on getting the kids out of the house, getting that first color screen, and figuring out how to make a LongBody into a forever plane... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 9 hours ago, steingar said: I must be a special short bus riding kinda guy. I just bought a motorcycle battery tender from a bike shop and plumbed the thing into the battery. Battery has been going for 4 or five years without a hiccup, and the airplane is always ready to fly in the long winter. Admittedly my aircraft is old, so has the 14V electric system. Mine came outOf annual a couple weeks ago, leaving for Long Island yesterday it appears my battery bit the dust... seven years old, I changed my previous batteries at eight years while they appeared normal, they don’t make them like they used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 11 hours ago, steingar said: I must be a special short bus riding kinda guy. I just bought a motorcycle battery tender from a bike shop and plumbed the thing into the battery. Battery has been going for 4 or five years without a hiccup, and the airplane is always ready to fly in the long winter. Admittedly my aircraft is old, so has the 14V electric system. To me that makes sense, but many IA's will not sign off an installation of charger unless it uses approved methods. Mine will make you remove it. His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. Battery Tender installation requires you to place the connection to the hot side of the solenoid rather than the battery terminals. Second point is the disconnect piece must be approved. I saw him make another owner remove your kind of set up. I like to keep my IA happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 46 minutes ago, GeeBee said: His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. Does putting a fuse inline with the positive wire count for making it not a direct connection? I'm asking, because for example the clock and the dome lights are wired straight to the battery via a 5A inline fuse. Or is that allowed because the factory did it this way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Is it direct to the battery terminal or the hot post on the solenoid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Good question, and I'll have to check; that said, is there any actual difference? As in, why couldn't a battery minder be connected to the hot post on the solenoid, if that somehow makes it legal/compliant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 2 hours ago, GeeBee said: To me that makes sense, but many IA's will not sign off an installation of charger unless it uses approved methods. Mine will make you remove it. His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. Battery Tender installation requires you to place the connection to the hot side of the solenoid rather than the battery terminals. Second point is the disconnect piece must be approved. I saw him make another owner remove your kind of set up. I like to keep my IA happy. If you say so. This airplane has been in 5 or 6 annuals with that thing attached, my mechanic hasn't said boo. I had the same thing on my old Cherokee, battery was 7 years old when I sold it. It went through annuals with a number of mechanics. No one said anything. Moreover, if your mechanic doesn't like it, take it off. Put it back on the next day. Takes about a minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 On 9/24/2020 at 8:34 AM, GeeBee said: To me that makes sense, but many IA's will not sign off an installation of charger unless it uses approved methods. Mine will make you remove it. His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. Battery Tender installation requires you to place the connection to the hot side of the solenoid rather than the battery terminals. Second point is the disconnect piece must be approved. I saw him make another owner remove your kind of set up. I like to keep my IA happy. You should ask him how he thinks the surefly was approval.. installation calls for connecting directly to the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 By connecting directly to the battery, I am talking about to the battery terminals. If you notice on the Surefly you are allowed to connect to the hot side of the battery solenoid. Just about every airplane that has a master switch has a battery solenoid. It is too big of a current not to run through a solenoid. If per chance you have a really big master switch like a marine type, you can still connect to the hot side of that to comply with the Surefly installation manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 On 9/24/2020 at 5:34 AM, GeeBee said: His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. I looked in AC 43.13 for that and can't find it. If you think of it when you see him ask him where it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 On 9/24/2020 at 7:34 AM, GeeBee said: To me that makes sense, but many IA's will not sign off an installation of charger unless it uses approved methods. Mine will make you remove it. His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. Battery Tender installation requires you to place the connection to the hot side of the solenoid rather than the battery terminals. Second point is the disconnect piece must be approved. I saw him make another owner remove your kind of set up. I like to keep my IA happy. Time to find a new IA. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 Not on your life. I just went through an annual and the airplane got the best annual it has ever received. He has in fact been regaled on the pages of this board. I asked him about it and here is his thinking. You are hooking up to the battery, directly I might add, a device that is using SAE automobile wire, non approved insulation, in a manner that has absolutely no design approval or material approvals. It is not conformal to the Type Data certificate and there is absolutely no design criteria, no STC and no material approvals. He went on to say the Battery Minder unit uses approved connectors and materials and hooks up in a manner that is keeps the TDCS intact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) The battery minder kit is just standard parts. They even list them on the instructions and give you a suggested log book entry. I did my own kit. My IA just wanted to see that the proper materials were used (aviation grade wire and terminals) and signed off the install no problem. this install looks nice but I wanted to be able to hook it up with the baggage door closed and locked, which is how I leave my plane - rumor has it that a raccoon got into a couple plans on the other side of the field and made a real mess of things. So mine is in the tks door. Two of them. Connected to the hot side of the relays. Edited September 26, 2020 by hypertech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 4 hours ago, GeeBee said: Not on your life. I just went through an annual and the airplane got the best annual it has ever received. He has in fact been regaled on the pages of this board. I asked him about it and here is his thinking. You are hooking up to the battery, directly I might add, a device that is using SAE automobile wire, non approved insulation, in a manner that has absolutely no design approval or material approvals. It is not conformal to the Type Data certificate and there is absolutely no design criteria, no STC and no material approvals. He went on to say the Battery Minder unit uses approved connectors and materials and hooks up in a manner that is keeps the TDCS intact. So no 43.13 ref after all? It sounds like he's just worried about bad installations, which can happen with anything regardless of whether it is hooked directly to the battery or not. I don't think there is such a thing as "approved insulation" for aircraft wiring. Wiring/avionics is one of those areas where there's mostly just best practices and stuff that has worked before. AC 43.13 and similar docs provide a reference for stuff that does get used sometimes, i.e., accepted data, even approved data sometimes if nothing else is available, but it is not limiting and not regulatory. This is a pretty common interface kit that does, however, check a lot of the boxes for materials and parts. At my home field if you rent a hangar from the city and want to leave an airplane plugged into their power unattended, this is the kit they want you to use, and they come and check your installation before giving you a thing to put on the wall in your hangar showing that you're allowed to leave it plugged in and have already been inspected. I connected the positive terminal on mine directly to the battery since terminal corrosion is one potential source of charge/battery degradation. It's a very minor detail, but I saw no reason not to do it that way.https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/audioathaik.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 43.13-1b wouldn't say anything about modifications--it's only about repairs, so it's a little weird anyone would be referring to it for guidance on modifications Edit: oh, @EricJ beat me to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 40 minutes ago, EricJ said: So no 43.13 ref after all? It sounds like he's just worried about bad installations, which can happen with anything regardless of whether it is hooked directly to the battery or not. I don't think there is such a thing as "approved insulation" for aircraft wiring. Wiring/avionics is one of those areas where there's mostly just best practices and stuff that has worked before. AC 43.13 and similar docs provide a reference for stuff that does get used sometimes, i.e., accepted data, even approved data sometimes if nothing else is available, but it is not limiting and not regulatory. This is a pretty common interface kit that does, however, check a lot of the boxes for materials and parts. At my home field if you rent a hangar from the city and want to leave an airplane plugged into their power unattended, this is the kit they want you to use, and they come and check your installation before giving you a thing to put on the wall in your hangar showing that you're allowed to leave it plugged in and have already been inspected. I connected the positive terminal on mine directly to the battery since terminal corrosion is one potential source of charge/battery degradation. It's a very minor detail, but I saw no reason not to do it that way.https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/audioathaik.php Yes there is. 43.13 shows you the materials both wire and connectors which is required for aviation wiring. It also says this: I would point you to paragraph 1004: "Each aircraft storage battery, whether approved to a Technical Standards Order (TSO) or not, must be designed as required by regulation and installed as prescribed by the manufacturer." Installation of "ring terminal systems" mentioned in previous posts is non compliant with FAR 21.9 I would point to Battery Minder's own instructions of using non compliant systems: Some non-aviation BatteryMINDer models are supplied with an automotive- grade battery connection harness and a battery-mounted temperature sensor.However, these are not eligible for installation on FAA-certified aircraft, under Federal Aviation Regulations 14 CFR §21.9. They are suitable only for temporary connection or bench charging but cannot be legally installed on the aircraft. Aviation-specific BatteryMINDer models are supplied with a battery clip harness for temporary connections for a battery that is removed from the airframe. The interface kit you posted and required is what I installed. As to your connecting it directly to the battery, that is allowed, because the instructions clear it. Determine best electrical access to the aircraft battery. See installation examples in a variety of airframes at www.audioauthority.com/bmaik. Since batteries are regularly removed for inspection, maintenance and replacement, we recommend attaching the positive ring terminal to the battery relay post or stud that is connected to the positive battery cable and the negative to a convenient airframe ground (see Figure 1). Plastic or composite airframes that do not have battery busses may require direct connection to battery terminals. The best method to access the battery varies by aircraft type and must be determined by the installing mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted September 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 1 hour ago, jaylw314 said: 43.13-1b wouldn't say anything about modifications--it's only about repairs, so it's a little weird anyone would be referring to it for guidance on modifications Edit: oh, @EricJ beat me to it It does say about the materials required in the modification as does FAR 21.9. If you're using SAE wire with non conformal insulation, that is not allowed on a certified aircraft. FAR 21.9 (a) 3 spells it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, GeeBee said: Yes there is. 43.13 shows you the materials both wire and connectors which is required for aviation wiring. It also says this: ACs are always advisory, not regulatory. They provide accepted data and methods but are neither limiting nor regulatory. AC 43.13 is a little unusual in that it can also be used as approved data under the conditions described on the cover page. I think you'd be surprised what goes in many avionics shops and maintenance hangars when it comes to terminals and wiring, etc., etc. Quote I would point you to paragraph 1004: "Each aircraft storage battery, whether approved to a Technical Standards Order (TSO) or not, must be designed as required by regulation and installed as prescribed by the manufacturer." Installation of "ring terminal systems" mentioned in previous posts is non compliant with FAR 21.9 I would point to Battery Minder's own instructions of using non compliant systems: Some non-aviation BatteryMINDer models are supplied with an automotive- grade battery connection harness and a battery-mounted temperature sensor.However, these are not eligible for installation on FAA-certified aircraft, under Federal Aviation Regulations 14 CFR §21.9. They are suitable only for temporary connection or bench charging but cannot be legally installed on the aircraft. Aviation-specific BatteryMINDer models are supplied with a battery clip harness for temporary connections for a battery that is removed from the airframe. The interface kit you posted and required is what I installed. As to your connecting it directly to the battery, that is allowed, because the instructions clear it. Determine best electrical access to the aircraft battery. See installation examples in a variety of airframes at www.audioauthority.com/bmaik. Since batteries are regularly removed for inspection, maintenance and replacement, we recommend attaching the positive ring terminal to the battery relay post or stud that is connected to the positive battery cable and the negative to a convenient airframe ground (see Figure 1). Plastic or composite airframes that do not have battery busses may require direct connection to battery terminals. The best method to access the battery varies by aircraft type and must be determined by the installing mechanic. The Battery Minder kit and instructions specifically use ring terminals, which are the type of terminal that should be used, according to 43.13 and other FAA documents. And now you're saying connecting directly to the battery is allowed, and I was responding specifically to you saying: "Mine will make you remove it. His point is by AC 43.13 that there can be no direct connection to the battery terminals other than the one main wire. Battery Tender installation requires you to place the connection to the hot side of the solenoid rather than the battery terminals." So I guess we've come full circle and neither of those things appear to be true. Edited September 26, 2020 by EricJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 My install is directly to the battery. However it does not use the provided hardware. It uses standard aircraft grade tefzel wire, ring terminals, and an inline fuse holder just like the others in the battery area. Terminated with a molex connector behind the aux power port. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 1 minute ago, larryb said: My install is directly to the battery. However it does not use the provided hardware. It uses standard aircraft grade tefzel wire, ring terminals, and an inline fuse holder just like the others in the battery area. Terminated with a molex connector behind the aux power port. That's what I wanted to do, but I have the additional checkbox of meeting the hangar landlord's inspection requirements, and that wouldn't pass. :'( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 I bought the certified plane kit from the battery minder people... With the Tefzel coated wires.... The experimental kit is less expensive... With the PVC coated wires... Best regards, -a- 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.