The missing middle... $55-75k Mooneys... or do my own panel?

[FlyingCanuck]

I’ve been in the market for my first Mooney for a few months. Looking for a well maintained, mechanically sound -E or -F (would consider a -C) with WAAS and autopilot. Budget $55-75k.

Moved too slow on a few gems. But right now, it seems like the market is dry. A few around the $100k, which is absolutely out of my bracket, and a few in the $30-45k with very worn out interior/paint and vintage panels. Everything in the $55-75k range is under contract/pending or has some questionable mechanical / history issues.

So I’ll ask the question I sort of know the answer to: is it totally insane to find a well maintained but basic-and-not-pretty $30-45k bird, and do the upgrades myself? I know all the stats on ROI for avionics. But the thing is, with your own upgrades you get the aircraft you want. Lots of $55-75k birds have a few things already dated... so they may not be forever answers already and may need some investment themselves. 

Question: would any MS’ers seriously consider buying a sound $30-45k plane and then paying for WAAS, PFD, and autopilot ... and can it be done for under an additional +35k (incl installation)?

(and if you did buy said bird, what would you do with the panel, for $35k or less incl installation?)

Maybe I’m crazy or frustrated by the missing middle in the M20E/F market right now.....

Edited September 7, 2020 by FlyingCanuck

[hammdo]

You could start with this:

right in your budget.

if a forever plane, get the most you can afford with as many features installed already. If you want to make it your own, you could do what @PilotFun101 did...

-Don

[SantosDumont]

It doesn't have WAAS though.  I thought about getting a Garmin 375 last year when I did ADS-B, but then Tailbeacon came available and it made a lot more sense to just spend $2k on that and be done with the install in 10 minutes, then spend $12k installing the 375 and be down for weeks.  Well, it made sense at the time... then of course a few months later COVID hit.

Weighing heavily into the decision was that the few times I have flown the ILS to minimums made me really not ever want to do that again, just because I do it so infrequently that it required a huge amount of concentration that approached my task saturation limit... so I was fine with the limitations of non-precision approaches.

[Rwsavory]

The Trophy 221 for sale looks like it’s right in your wheelhouse. Based on what I know with a few upgrades that we have done on our plane over the years, I would say that a $35,000 budget for a new panel including an auto pilot would be very optimistic.

[JimB]

2 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Question: would any MS’ers seriously consider buying a sound $30-45k plane and then paying for WAAS, PFD, and autopilot ... and can it be done for under an additional +35k (incl installation)?

That's what I did. Went from this:

To this:

I have a GNC 255 on it's way to me now and just waiting for Garmin to approve the GFC 500 for the F model. Also have new style yokes to go in at the same time. 

[Ragsf15e]

49 minutes ago, JimB said:

That's what I did. Went from this:

To this:

I have a GNC 255 on it's way to me now and just waiting for Garmin to approve the GFC 500 for the F model. Also have new style yokes to go in at the same time. 

Yes, it’s beautiful but what did it cost (with the gfc too)?

To the OP... be patient.  Find one real close to what you want.  If it’s a simple upgrade from a GNS430 to an Avidyne440 to get waas, that’s easy to assess cost.  Otherwise, the $35k airplane plus deferred mx plus cleanup interior and paint and upgrade avionics will get you a beautiful $75k airplane for the low low price of another $50-$80k.  And months of downtime too.With any new airplane there will be lots of unexpected costs that first year in addition to any planned upgrades.

So wait on the $75k airplane or at least really close instead of spending $35k plus $80K for an airplane worth $75k.

Again, if it’s close, you can get a good feel for the cost of a Garmin-375 or maybe dual G5s, but a whole new panel and autopilot?  Unless it’s a forever plane and money isn’t an issue, be patient.

[NJMac]

 

 

 

the $35k airplane plus deferred mx plus cleanup interior and paint and upgrade avionics will get you a beautiful $75k airplane for the low low price of another ....-$80k.  

 

That's about right. Speaking from experience unfortunately. You can look thru my photo albums and see the work. I stopped counting about $10,000 ago.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

11 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Question: would any MS’ers seriously consider buying a sound $30-45k plane and then paying for WAAS, PFD, and autopilot ... and can it be done for under an additional +35k (incl installation)?

No, that can not be done for $35K. And by the way, there is effectively no autopilot available to install in a C/E Mooney today. @PilotFun101 is into $55K in his panel and still doesn't have an autopilot yet? And that's the most expensive bit.

The ModWorks M20F is a good start but needs a WAAS GPS. That could be done for probably $10K to $15K and then you'd be set. 

[carusoam]

If you buy the low cost C...

And look at upgrading it to forever-plane status...

You won't go wrong...

There are a few M20Cs in that category around here...

If you are new to plane ownership, this is a tough way to get started...

I started with a C... it didn’t progress the way I expected...  ended up buying a more capable plane a decade later...

Lots of time off from good IFR experience because of it...

If you are familiar with airplane ownership already...

You know getting everything in the plane already when you buy it... has tremendous savings involved....

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[chriscalandro]

59 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

No, that can not be done for $35K. And by the way, there is effectively no autopilot available to install in a C/E Mooney today. @PilotFun101 is into $55K in his panel and still doesn't have an autopilot yet? And that's the most expensive bit.

The ModWorks M20F is a good start but needs a WAAS GPS. That could be done for probably $10K to $15K and then you'd be set. 

It absolutely can. I’ve done exactly what the OP is suggesting and have the full Dynon package installed for about 24k. Just trying to figure out what god I want and I’m all wired for the autopilot. 
 

it’s a lot of work, requires IA supervision, but yes. It can absolutely be done for 35, and probably less. I know. I just did it. 
 

the autopilot just requires the servos and brackets. They are not supposed to be that expensive at all. I think I heard around 2500 but I’m not sure where I got that from. 
 

photo taken before everything was 100% buttoned up. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by chriscalandro

[FloridaMan]

Keep in mind you can finance for < 4.5% over 20 years. That’s likely why planes have gone up in price, along with the inflation that hasn’t rippled into consumer goods yet (and using the bank’s money right now is a very good idea because of this). Financing $80k of a $100k airplane would leave you with around $500/mo payment. You can also possibly work terms in to finance upgrades as well. With aircraft ownership it is generally a good idea to start off with enough cash reserves to cover something bad happening, like a major engine repair. 

After 1,000 hours, you will likely have spent more on fuel and maintenance than you paid for the airplane. Don’t be swayed by a few thousand dollars at the buy-in price as it’s almost always more expensive to add to your airplane than it is to get one that someone else has already put money into. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by FloridaMan

[steingar]

There is a reason well-outfitted Mooneys sell fast.  If you go to do all that you'll spend way more than it costs to buy one.  Bob Belville's Echo was probably the best bargain there's ever been for an airplane at 110 AMUs.  Avionics installs are not for the feint of wallet.

[MikeOH]

Probably implied in many of the above posts, but if you choose to 'roll your own' rather than buying with what you want already done is DOWNTIME!  Depending upon the complexity of the avionics install not everything is going to work right initially...are you ready for several trips back to the shop (especially if not conveniently close) and attendant aggravation?  And, after all that you will likely only get 50% back when you sell to the next guy.

YOU want to be that 'next guy'

I made sure I bought with what I wanted (basically just wanted a WAAS GPS, but the plane had an A/P. Really glad it did; that will be on my list next time as they are incredibly expensive to install)

[chriscalandro]

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Probably implied in many of the above posts, but if you choose to 'roll your own' rather than buying with what you want already done is DOWNTIME!  Depending upon the complexity of the avionics install not everything is going to work right initially...are you ready for several trips back to the shop (especially if not conveniently close) and attendant aggravation?  And, after all that you will likely only get 50% back when you sell to the next guy.

YOU want to be that 'next guy'

I made sure I bought with what I wanted (basically just wanted a WAAS GPS, but the plane had an A/P. Really glad it did; that will be on my list next time as they are incredibly expensive to install)

I don’t understand this mentality. For the money spent it should work properly the first time. There is no reason a shop should be charging 80-100 $$$ an hour and can’t be thorough enough to check their work. 
 

I rewired everything in the airplane myself. When I was done I had 0 squaks. If I can do it so can the shop charging 10s of thousands. 
 

One trip back is reasonable. Anything more than that is not. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by chriscalandro

[Parker_Woodruff]

The market is very thin right now.  A lot of insurance prospects: "Here's a new tail number, the one I was chasing got snatched up immediately".

[Missile=Awesome]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

I don’t understand this mentality. For the money spent it should work properly the first time. There is no reason a shop should be charging 80-100 $$$ an hour and can’t be thorough enough to check their work. 
 

I rewired everything in the airplane myself. When I was done I had 0 squaks. If I can do it so can the shop charging 10s of thousands. 
 

One trip back is reasonable. Anything more than that is not. 

If Ifs and buts were nuts, we’d all have food for life...

[Missile=Awesome]

ALWAYS financially savvy to buy what you want (spending a little more in acquisition) vs. building and paying for parts and labor to get exactly what you want.

[k5beason]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:32 AM, FloridaMan said:

Keep in mind you can finance for < 4.5% over 20 years. That’s likely why planes have gone up in price, along with the inflation that hasn’t rippled into consumer goods yet (and using the bank’s money right now is a very good idea because of this). Financing $80k of a $100k airplane would leave you with around $500/mo payment. You can also possibly work terms in to finance upgrades as well. With aircraft ownership it is generally a good idea to start off with enough cash reserves to cover something bad happening, like a major engine repair. 

After 1,000 hours, you will likely have spent more on fuel and maintenance than you paid for the airplane. Don’t be swayed by a few thousand dollars at the buy-in price as it’s almost always more expensive to add to your airplane than it is to get one that someone else has already put money into. 

 Who is offering 4.5% at 20 years?

[rbridges]

3 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

ALWAYS financially savvy to buy what you want (spending a little more in acquisition) vs. building and paying for parts and labor to get exactly what you want.

Sometimes that can be a compromise.  Finding avionics, model, ttaf, smoh, condition, etc.  It can be hard to find what you're wanting in a used market.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, rbridges said:

Sometimes it's It's almost always hard to find what you're wanting.

But the patience and persistence will certainly save you a lot of money... and the time is a wash. Either spend the time now looking for the right one or spend the time in the shop building the one you want... in both situations you are without wings for that period of time.

[Missile=Awesome]

Just now, rbridges said:

That's the compromise.  Finding avionics, model, ttaf, smoh, condition, etc.  Sometimes it's hard to find what you're wanting.  

Absolutely.  That’s why spending a little more (than you want) is WISE and KNOWING what you want BEFORE you obtain “it” is critical to being financially ahead.  For some “spending a little more” feels like it’s NOT a viable option.  It, spending more up front, is a lot smarter in the long run than a slow add/bleed to the finish line.  Bonus points for getting to enjoy/have what you want up front...

(Wisdom is gained often by pain and experience.  I resemble THAT remark)

[StevenL757]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:28 PM, gsxrpilot said:

No, that can not be done for $35K. And by the way, there is effectively no autopilot available to install in a C/E Mooney today. @PilotFun101 is into $55K in his panel and still doesn't have an autopilot yet? And that's the most expensive bit.

The ModWorks M20F is a good start but needs a WAAS GPS. That could be done for probably $10K to $15K and then you'd be set. 

What he said.

[Matt Ward]

Being in the middle in any market is rarely advantageous, and that's no different with light airplanes.  I suspect if you take people's stated missions, "not in the flight levels", "some IFR but not hard IFR", "3 or 4 hour legs", "900+ pounds useful", "<10 gph", etc, you'd find a  C, E, F, J, etc would work just fine.  And you'd be able to stay down market without a problem.  But I don't think that's the real issue many folks face.  Rather, the more pragmatic $ differences come from "trim or hit an altitude hold button", "see all my CHTs at the same time or not", "fly an LPV", "play bluetooth audio to all seats or not", etc.  That's where the middle gets so messy.  Suddenly you have a $50K plane with a less-than-accretive $40K spend.

[Sixstring2k]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:28 PM, gsxrpilot said:

No, that can not be done for $35K. And by the way, there is effectively no autopilot available to install in a C/E Mooney today. @PilotFun101 is into $55K in his panel and still doesn't have an autopilot yet? And that's the most expensive bit.

The ModWorks M20F is a good start but needs a WAAS GPS. That could be done for probably $10K to $15K and then you'd be set. 

I don’t know if that’s correct, I could be wrong here but I think in the video he posted he said that all that’s left is for the autopilot to be certified ( not holding my breath for this year or next ) and to plug in the servos In and the controller and that’s it, that means the wiring is already in place just probably missing what ever brackets are needed for the servos and that’s it,  If that’s the case and the only pricing that comes close is the Bonanza 3 axis option that’s 5k for parts or less and what ever labor is. 

I think one of the things that made his install so expensive is that he wanted that second 10 inch on the right side if not I don’t think that install complete would have being more than the 35k-40k range. (Just guessing) Another thing is that this is new to some shops and that means you paying for the techs to learn and that’s not good so taking it to a shop with experience is a must or the labor will skyrocket.

If that was my money i would have taking that job to someone with experience, I think saints aviation down in Florida is one place, the name comes up a lot when it comes to this install. 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Sixstring2k

[Sixstring2k]

On 9/7/2020 at 11:23 PM, chriscalandro said:

It absolutely can. I’ve done exactly what the OP is suggesting and have the full Dynon package installed for about 24k. Just trying to figure out what god I want and I’m all wired for the autopilot. 
 

it’s a lot of work, requires IA supervision, but yes. It can absolutely be done for 35, and probably less. I know. I just did it. 
 

the autopilot just requires the servos and brackets. They are not supposed to be that expensive at all. I think I heard around 2500 but I’m not sure where I got that from. 
 

photo taken before everything was 100% buttoned up. 

I like it, that’s a nice panel. I think if i find a project m20F this is probably the route i would take. For the price is not bad, I think is just up the person the budget.