Anybody with Surefly installation experience

[Robert C.]

Great thread....am planning on ordering the SureFly shortly but have one question for the brain trust.

Seems like the wire should be direct to one battery. Does that mean always starting the engine on that battery? I switch batteries for every flight to have the wear and tear on the batteries from starting be more even. 

Thanks in advance for your input.

Robert

[47U]

32 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

Seems like the wire should be direct to one battery.

Can you connect the lead for the SureFly to the battery terminal on your master switch relay?  That works great on my C, and doesn't mucky up the battery leads with extraneous terminals.  The master switch relay should always be hot, regardless of which battery you have selected for the flight (shouldn't it?).   

[Robert C.]

7 minutes ago, 47U said:

Can you connect the lead for the SureFly to the battery terminal on your master switch relay?  That works great on my C, and doesn't mucky up the battery leads with extraneous terminals.  The master switch relay should always be hot, regardless of which battery you have selected for the flight (shouldn't it?).   

If I correctly understand some of the preceding posts the answer is "no" you cannot, hence the question. 

[N231BN]

Can you connect the lead for the SureFly to the battery terminal on your master switch relay?  That works great on my C, and doesn't mucky up the battery leads with extraneous terminals.  The master switch relay should always be hot, regardless of which battery you have selected for the flight (shouldn't it?).   

As long as it is on the battery(hot) side of the relay.

[Ragsf15e]

Battery terminal or hot side of the master relay is allowed in the installation manual.  Mine is on the relay for the reasons @47U said, but I only have 1 battery...

[kortopates]

On 2/11/2021 at 6:36 PM, PT20J said:

I heard from Jason today that Surefly has received FAA approval for the new version with the improved voltage regulator that alleviates the voltage spike reset issue and expect to be shipping in a few weeks.

Skip

I just called them week or two ago, and then they told me the new units with integrated VR won't be out for another 6 months - till the fall! I wonder what happened?

[PT20J]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I just called them week or two ago, and then they told me the new units with integrated VR won't be out for another 6 months - till the fall! I wonder what happened?

Thanks for the update, Paul. 

[kmyfm20s]

I'm still happy with my installation and it has performed flawlessly with the power conditioner installed.   I will be curious of what the size and shape of the new unit will be if its an all in one. Not much room to spare on some engines.

[PT20J]

37 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

I'm still happy with my installation and it has performed flawlessly with the power conditioner installed.   I will be curious of what the size and shape of the new unit will be if its an all in one. Not much room to spare on some engines.

The power glitch fix shouldn’t affect the case of the SIM as it’s a change of voltage regulator chip to a newer part with a wider input range.  Not sure what the change for faster boot time involved; might be firmware or a faster processor. 

Skip

[Robert C.]

3 hours ago, N231BN said:

3 hours ago, 47U said:

Can you connect the lead for the SureFly to the battery terminal on your master switch relay?  That works great on my C, and doesn't mucky up the battery leads with extraneous terminals.  The master switch relay should always be hot, regardless of which battery you have selected for the flight (shouldn't it?).   

As long as it is on the battery(hot) side of the relay.

I guess I should have stated the question more clearly. You CAN connect via relay, but it seems that the setup may not work well. KMYF and others have directly linked to batt 2, rather than going through the relay. Not having much of a background in things electrical I'm trying to figure out what the implications are for what battery to start on.

Robert

[kmyfm20s]

9 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

I guess I should have stated the question more clearly. You CAN connect via relay, but it seems that the setup may not work well. KMYF and others have directly linked to batt 2, rather than going through the relay. Not having much of a background in things electrical I'm trying to figure out what the implications are for what battery to start on.

Robert

I alternate batteries when starting. I haven’t noticed a difference between the batteries and SIM performance. 

[kmyfm20s]

44 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The power glitch fix shouldn’t affect the case of the SIM as it’s a change of voltage regulator chip to a newer part with a wider input range.  Not sure what the change for faster boot time involved; might be firmware or a faster processor. 

Skip

The capacitor is fairly large. Maybe they decided it wasn’t necessary with the new design.

[PT20J]

13 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

The capacitor is fairly large. Maybe they decided it wasn’t necessary with the new design.

The capacitor was part of an external filter to eliminate voltage spikes on the power line. On some 28 volt airplanes they found spikes high enough to trip the circuit that protects the voltage regulator from surges due to lightening. They found a voltage regulator IC that wasn’t available during the initial design that has a higher allowable input voltage permitting the lightning protection threshold to be raised. So, the filter, including the capacitor, is not required with the new design. I didn’t like the filter because there were just too many parts under the cowling always live with 28 volts for my taste.

Skip

[carusoam]

Interesting situation arises with a two battery system....

1) If you connect the electronic mag directly to a battery....

It is the same as all the single battery installations...

2) The mag doesn’t put a lot of drag on the battery for the start up process...

3) Alternating the battery used for the start process is still interesting...

4) Overall... if you alternate batteries like you did before....  check to see if the rate of float charge on the second battery exceeds the rate of discharge of the electronic mag in operation....

 

5) Clearing things up a bit...

• Both batteries are still getting charged continuously...
• The One in use gets a high rate of charge...
• The other one gets a float rate of charge...
• If the float rate of charge is high enough, the electronic mag won’t drain the battery...
• Looks like a second electronic mag will be needed to balance the electronic mag loads...

6) It would be a good idea to check the flow of electrons into the battery that has been deselected by the switch...  how strong is the charge rate during the float charge?

7) This brings up a different way to look at the battery switching process... you may want to consider a primary and a secondary arrangement...

8) Battery technology has gotten pretty good... what happens if we always were to fly using the one primary battery?

Does the secondary battery die by being used less..?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

The Surefly SIM power wire should be directly connected to a battery or to the first terminal that the battery lead goes to with the fuse as close to this connection as possible. It won’t matter to the SIM which battery is selected for starting so long as the battery the SIM is connected to is charged.

[kortopates]

I am looking forward to the updated 24V unit when available, I'll get a bit more than a pound back in used load! Plus some space on the firewall back.

I had to go to great lengths to fit the SIM on the engine - the mags barely fit as it was with 2 alternators!


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[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

I am looking forward to the updated 24V unit when available, I'll get a bit more than a pound back in used load! Plus some space on the firewall back.

I had to go to great lengths to fit the SIM on the engine - the mags barely fit as it was with 2 alternators!


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Did you replace the right mag or left mag with the surefly and why? On my 252 the duel alternators do make the mag space small but the right mag is way more cramped than the left so I’m leaning toward replacing the right mag. 

[carusoam]

For starting benefits...

The left mag tradionally gets the 0° BTDC ignition timing...

The right mag traditionally gets turned off by the ignition switch... during start....

See if I got that correct...   I’m only a PP, not a mechanic...

Wait for PaulK to answer... he knows his tech details, and has the qualifications to match!

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Did you replace the right mag or left mag with the surefly and why? On my 252 the duel alternators do make the mag space small but the right mag is way more cramped than the left so I’m leaning toward replacing the right mag. 

It would only fit on the right side and I still had to rotate drive gear a tooth and change the mounting hardware to use Lycoming style star washers to get it to fit. Right side was preferable for me anyway since the left side is easier to access; since I pull the mags off at every annual.

 

Both mags are used in starting a K.

 

 

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[Will.iam]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

It would only fit on the right side and I still had to rotate drive gear a tooth and change the mounting hardware to use Lycoming style star washers to get it to fit. Right side was preferable for me anyway since the left side is easier to access; since I pull the mags off at every annual.

 

Both mags are used in starting a K.

 

 

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“Both mags are used in starting a K.“

does that mean both mags have the delay to 0 btdc in aid to starting or does only one mag have the delay and the other mag doesn’t fire until the rotation speed is up passed the starter speed?

i. E. So i could replace either mag with surefly?

[kortopates]

On 4/23/2021 at 11:26 PM, Will.iam said:

“Both mags are used in starting a K.“

does that mean both mags have the delay to 0 btdc in aid to starting or does only one mag have the delay and the other mag doesn’t fire until the rotation speed is up passed the starter speed?

i. E. So i could replace either mag with surefly?

Not exactly, neither mag has second retard breaker points, both mags use impulse coupling. So yes you could replace either mag with the Surefly if you can get it to fit there. 

[Guy Floyd]

@kortopatesDo you know how the SF will fit in a M20K 231? (TIO360-LB)

[kortopates]

On 5/4/2021 at 8:55 PM, Guy Floyd said:

@kortopatesDo you know how the SF will fit in a M20K 231? (TIO360-LB)

It will probably fit on either left or right magneto position with a single alternator, but for sure on the right side. It will take some work to get it to fit, since there isn't enough clearance to use the existing style split washer. 

[Guy Floyd]

@kortopatesThanks for your reply.  I am told that the advanced spark capability is disabled in turbo charged airplane.  Is it worth installing still?

[Will.iam]

5 hours ago, Guy Floyd said:

@kortopatesThanks for your reply.  I am told that the advanced spark capability is disabled in turbo charged airplane.  Is it worth installing still?

Depends, can you run smoothly LOP or want to run LOP for that matter?

is a mag inspection/overhaul coming up?

I’m looking to get a surefly for the hotter and longer duration spark than a mag can offer. This longer hotter spark ignites the fuel mixture better thus giving you a little lower fuel burn and being able to go further LOP before the engine gets rough. Also the electronic ignition doesn’t require pressurized mags like my slick mags do so if up in the FL’a and my mag starts misbehaving due to failed or inadequate pressure i can safely shut it down and keep my engine running on the electronic ignition until i can find an airport to land at. My mags are due for an inspection so might as well put one of those mag inspection money toward the surefly and avoid another inspection on it until 2000 hours later.  

If I wasn’t coming up on mag inspection it would be a harder sell for me personally.