adverseyaw Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 Hi all, I'm curious about TKS installations. I've started the ball rolling on stepping up from my J model and would like to know more from folks who have deice installed. A few questions: Is there a meaningful difference between factory-installed TKS and aftermarket TKS? I've looked through the logs of two planes with "Mooney" TKS and found that in both cases, it was installed after the plane was built. This makes me think there's not a big difference. Anyone who has painted a plane with TKS deice -- did you remove the panels for painting? I know about CAV, are there other TKS installers? Did you add TKS or buy a plane with it, and later find that it was not worth the investment? Has anyone measured pre-/post-install airspeed numbers? I've seen the quoted numbers but am curious if anyone has measurements. Thanks for your experience :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 (edited) I know very little about this, so I won't attempt to answer any specific questions.. But I'll just mention that only factory-installed TKS can be FIKI. To my knowledge, no aftermarket installations have ever been FIKI certified (at least, not for a Mooney). Edited August 31, 2020 by toto Sounds like even the one thing I thought I knew was incorrect :( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 Great question... AY! There are two levels of TKS systems... Fiki, and non-Fiki.... One is outrageously expensive, the other is beyond outrageously expensive.... If going Fiki... a great idea... buy the plane with it all installed and operating already... purely economics driven... We have the TKS company around here and another supplier of the fluid... if you have detailed questions to ask.. There is some monthly maintenance to go with that... always keep the system running... it has a tendency to dry up and get gooey... If you fly in the PNW or East of the Great Lakes... TKS systems are very popular.... Certification... only some Mooneys get the Fiki level...which comes with a few back up systems... pumps and screens... There are some signs that make a plane with a TKS system obvious... Ti leading edges, ice lights, and a heated stall vane... Mooneys look purpose built... Fiki Mooneys look like something the terminator would be proud to cruise around in.... Speed loss.... a few kias... often not noticeable if flying a TC’d Mooney... in the FLs... What else are you asking about? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 3 years ago I sold my J and bought a FIKI 252 Encore. My airplane had the TKS installed by the original owner by CAV at around 100 hours TT. As far as I know the factory never installs TKS, the planes are sent to CAV after the factory is done building it. As far as the value, well that is in the eye of the beholder. Some people don't want it at all because it slows the plane down all the time, and weights 100 lb, including the fluid. When I did my upgrade I really wanted it because I had cancelled a number of flights because I could not guarantee no icing. Having TKS has certainly improved my dispatch rate. But truth told, it is just a few flights a year. The improvement in my "comfort level" is significant. I am still happy I have it and would not want a real traveling plane without it. I don't feel the after-market values TKS much at all. I feel I got mine for free. There were 3 Encores on the market when I bought mine. All had similar hours, equipment, and price. But only one had TKS, the one I bought. It's like a house with a swimming pool. One of the requirements to get the FIKI certification is dual alternators. That means your J can never be FIKI because it can't have dual alternators. When I was plane-searching I skipped over all non-FIKI installations. Only Bravo's, Ovations, Acclaims, and Encores can be FIKI. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 hour ago, adverseyaw said: Hi all, I'm curious about TKS installations. I've started the ball rolling on stepping up from my J model and would like to know more from folks who have deice installed. A few questions: Is there a meaningful difference between factory-installed TKS and aftermarket TKS? I've looked through the logs of two planes with "Mooney" TKS and found that in both cases, it was installed after the plane was built. This makes me think there's not a big difference. Anyone who has painted a plane with TKS deice -- did you remove the panels for painting? I know about CAV, are there other TKS installers? Did you add TKS or buy a plane with it, and later find that it was not worth the investment? Has anyone measured pre-/post-install airspeed numbers? I've seen the quoted numbers but am curious if anyone has measurements. Thanks for your experience :-) 1. no difference. you are correct. 2. Yes, my 231 was painted w/ TKS installed. no biggy to mask off the panels. 3. Yes, but most (all?) are authorized by Cav. 4. both. installed on 231 by shoreline aviation in MA and bought a FIKI Acclaim. Is it worth the investment? for me: yes. 5. My acclaim is 5% below book cruise LOP using FF tp determine power. Not a meaningful degradation in speed given the added capabilities. I flew your plane when my friend Jim Murphy owned it. NIce bird and well cared for by him. For where you are geographically, if it were me, i'd add the TKS. I have first hand experience w/ summertime icing crossing the Cascades in the 231 w/ a no-hazard system, and I'm glad I had it. -dan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 Not sure what you mean by “factory” v. “aftermarket.” TKS is made by, I think the name is CAV Systems now, it was CAV Aerospace. Here is the website. https://www.cav-systems.com My understanding is that all the installations are done by CAV. I see they have “authorized installers” now and CAV itself has reorganized a little, so maybe CAV has others do the install. TKS is the only liquid deicing system. Retrofit installations can be FIKI, but some aircraft can have FIKI systems and some can only be fitted with inadvertent. The aircraft must have dual alternators to get a FIKI system, and there may be other requirements. Think of the FIKI as being part of the entire aircraft as a system, to be certified the FAA always wants to see redundancy and error/failure alerting, so a single alternator which is a single point of failure can’t be FIKI. Don’t know about painting. The system costs a few knots according to those who have one, the highest number I remember is 7 knots, but it seems to vary some. I recall the weight being 74 pounds or something like that. I contacted CAV quite awhile ago and asked a bunch of questions, was thinking of adding it, but my aircraft can only be inadvertent (231) so I did not think it was worth the cost. I know they can retrofit a FIKI system because one of the questions was, if you had an aircraft that was inadvertent only, whether the cost to install FIKI is lower. It is actually higher because the entire inadvertent system must be removed first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V1VRV2 Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 The TKS on the 2002 Ovation I’m purchasing was installed by the Mooney Factory... 2 years after build. But still installed by Mooney. It’s in the airframe logbook. The person who installed the panels at the factory is also doing the PPI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 8 hours ago, adverseyaw said: Hi all, I'm curious about TKS installations. I've started the ball rolling on stepping up from my J model and would like to know more from folks who have deice installed. A few questions: Is there a meaningful difference between factory-installed TKS and aftermarket TKS? I've looked through the logs of two planes with "Mooney" TKS and found that in both cases, it was installed after the plane was built. This makes me think there's not a big difference. Anyone who has painted a plane with TKS deice -- did you remove the panels for painting? I know about CAV, are there other TKS installers? Did you add TKS or buy a plane with it, and later find that it was not worth the investment? Has anyone measured pre-/post-install airspeed numbers? I've seen the quoted numbers but am curious if anyone has measurements. Dan's @exM20K answers to your questions are good reference points. My experiences have been similar. I grew up in the Pacific NW (KPLU was my "base" for several years when I was learning to fly), and given the WX there most of the year, a FiKI airplane over the Cascades is pretty much a necessity. My answers to your points for comparison... No difference. All installations use the same procedures. There's no such thing as "Mooney TKS"...whomever performs your install will follow the same procedures mandated by CAV Aerospace The panels are masked off. No TKS system components are removed Yes. Check with CAV for that (short) list. There are only a couple of shops in the country that do it very well My system was installed in 2007 by the only previous owner who pretty much had deep pockets. Best feature of the airplane, in my opinion I lost about 4 to 5 knots over book with my install. Insignificant for me, versus the benefits of having the system on board Steve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 Either the factory or CAV or it's authorized installation centers can install FIKI. Even the factory installation is in fact the CAV system. They engineered, they built it, they certified it. Yes, it cost you a few knots, 7 or 8 seems to be the number. The peace of mind it brings me is worth the speed because I am never in a hurry, but I do weather fly and the dispatch rate of the airplane is superb considering it has no weather radar. There is no difference between factory or CAV installed units. The factory complies with the CAV drawings. I bought the airplane with FIKI on it. You have to be prepared to keep the system operational. The biggest part of that is using it once a month, no matter the weather. Exercise all pumps, airfoil and windshield systems. That means you have to keep fluid stocked. Amazingly, I find Amazon has a good price on gallon bottles. It also means from time to time you have to shell out some AMUs as in right now my heated stall warning vane is at Safe Flight for overhaul. 1800 bucks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 I have used about 40 gallons of TKS fluid in my system. Installed before I bought the plane. The system works great if you prime it and have it ON before entering icing condition. It will remove accumulation but it is not designed for that, keeping ice OFF is better. The excess fluid spray from the propeller does a good job of keeping the windshield clear even without that part of the system turned on. The windshield spray is like a constant squirt from your windshield wipers on a car. As stated above ^^ the peace of mind is a huge benefit. I don't worry about risk of icing anymore when scheduling a flight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 29 minutes ago, Cruiser said: The system works great if you prime it and have it ON before entering icing condition. It will remove accumulation but it is not designed for that, keeping ice OFF is better. Well-said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adverseyaw Posted August 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 This is great info -- thank you in particular @exM20K and @StevenL757 for sharing your experience. My J model is not going to be part of the equation. I'm looking for either a Bravo or an Acclaim (runners-up would be a 252 or Ovation) and will either be buying into a plane with it already installed, or will be adding it after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milotron Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 3 hours ago, GeeBee said: Either the factory or CAV or it's authorized installation centers can install FIKI. Even the factory installation is in fact the CAV system. They engineered, they built it, they certified it. Yes, it cost you a few knots, 7 or 8 seems to be the number. The peace of mind it brings me is worth the speed because I am never in a hurry, but I do weather fly and the dispatch rate of the airplane is superb considering it has no weather radar. There is no difference between factory or CAV installed units. The factory complies with the CAV drawings. I bought the airplane with FIKI on it. You have to be prepared to keep the system operational. The biggest part of that is using it once a month, no matter the weather. Exercise all pumps, airfoil and windshield systems. That means you have to keep fluid stocked. Amazingly, I find Amazon has a good price on gallon bottles. It also means from time to time you have to shell out some AMUs as in right now my heated stall warning vane is at Safe Flight for overhaul. 1800 bucks. Where are you finding this on amazon? Which brand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smwash02 Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, milotron said: Where are you finding this on amazon? Which brand? Davies TKS Fluid is on Amazon. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 hour ago, adverseyaw said: This is great info -- thank you in particular @exM20K and @StevenL757 for sharing your experience. My J model is not going to be part of the equation. I'm looking for either a Bravo or an Acclaim (runners-up would be a 252 or Ovation) and will either be buying into a plane with it already installed, or will be adding it after the fact. If your considering a 252, for its efficiency, you should instead focus on an Encore or converted Encore. The 252 is too limited in useful load, but my Encore conversion w/o TKS has over 1120 lbs, higher than many Bravo's and less thirsty. Although there are many Ovations with TKS that do just fine, IMO icing and normally aspirated aircraft don't play that well together. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 2 hours ago, adverseyaw said: This is great info -- thank you in particular @exM20K and @StevenL757 for sharing your experience. My J model is not going to be part of the equation. I'm looking for either a Bravo or an Acclaim (runners-up would be a 252 or Ovation) and will either be buying into a plane with it already installed, or will be adding it after the fact. Not sure if you've priced it out, but keep in mind that a full TKS TSO'd install on a K, M, R, S, or TN model Mooney will be between $60,000 and $70,000 all-in. If this is a concern, you're way better-off looking for an airplane with it already installed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, StevenL757 said: Not sure if you've priced it out, but keep in mind that a full TKS TSO'd install on a K, M, R, S, or TN model Mooney will be between $60,000 and $70,000 all-in. If this is a concern, you're way better-off looking for an airplane with it already installed. And based on what I see little of that is recovered on resale; much less percentage wise than an avionics upgrade. In a perfect world I would have the system, although I just can’t see springing for that much to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 Absolutely true. Assuming one spends the money to retrofit TKS onto their airplane, the amount of such a resale value would be somewhere in the $20k - $25k range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 33 minutes ago, Bravoman said: And based on what I see little of that is recovered on resale; much less percentage wise than an avionics upgrade. In a perfect world I would have the system, although I just can’t see springing for that much to get it. I think it can be said with all upgrades for airplanes - you only get a tiny fraction of the cost of upgrade back if you decide to sell. My philosophy of upgrades is buy what I want for me, but don't worry about buying what I think a next owner might want since its not worth the cost-trouble for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Pressley Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 Some of you will remember Kevin in ill that did lots of conversions on Mooneys. He installed a TKS on an E model Mooney. The only short body that I know about. And you will remember the barefoot bandit and San Juan islands in Washington State. We went there and made it ferry able but waited over a month after driving back but the weather never cleared enough to fly back so went back with a trailer and hauled it back. The TKS was the biggest nightmare of the entire operation. After taking care of all the leaks cased by disassembly it worked great. I sold it to a Dominican Doctor in NY/NJ. Still flying and deicing as far as I know. As for painting, the shop simply taped off the deice. It would be difficult to work out any dings as the holes are so small that they would close up. And you are correct. Resale value didn't increase whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted August 31, 2020 Report Share Posted August 31, 2020 5 hours ago, adverseyaw said: This is great info -- thank you in particular @exM20K and @StevenL757 for sharing your experience. My J model is not going to be part of the equation. I'm looking for either a Bravo or an Acclaim (runners-up would be a 252 or Ovation) and will either be buying into a plane with it already installed, or will be adding it after the fact. If you can find one, a FIKI Encore is probably the best plane Mooney ever made. I was looking for one when I bought the Acclaim, but there were none for sale. -de 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 1, 2020 Report Share Posted September 1, 2020 If encountering ice often... One of the good escape routes is vertical... to get out of the icing condition... Having a TC or a pair of TNs makes going higher in the FLs possible... I like my NA O... but it is rumored to run out of climb rate in the FLs... Thus leaving the escape routes, to flying around or going lower... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted September 1, 2020 Report Share Posted September 1, 2020 There was an FIKI encore for sale in Utah recently. IIRC the useful load was in the 950 range. We have icing for months in Michigan. However, most of the time it’s found below 8k and with the cooler temps the O is climbing like crazy. Out west with mountains the turbo would be a huge asset. Plenty of long bodies available with TKS...take the time to find a nice one with it already installed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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