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Touch and Go's not recommended? Why?


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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I think I remember reading somewhere that at low speeds (near Vy), full flaps actually causes more drag than having the gear extended.   Above some speed, extended gear causes more drag than full flaps.  Hence, the procedure to first pull flaps to 1/2 on a balked landing.

Realistically, I suspect they're pretty close, and I will admit to raising the gear first on some balked landings because it takes less brain power--the electric flaps need you to flip the switch up, then flip it back down at 1/2 flaps, while the landing gear you just flip up.  I figure in a gusty balked landing with lots of traffic around, preserving brainpower is more important than some percentage points difference in drag.

Remember no free lunch, it applies to just about everything in aircraft.

Typically there are three notches of flaps in a generic airplane, first notch primarily lift with some drag, second notch a little more lift but more drag, third notch is mostly added drag. Some of course may have more than three and some have no notches of flap, but Cessna’s version of electric flaps with stops is a pretty good idea, in this case it would be slap it full up, then down, without having to look or hold anything the flaps would go to first notch.

‘The FAA’s definition of the purpose of flaps is to slow an airplane for landing.

So yes, full flaps purpose is primarily drag and drag isn’t what you want to take off of course, however with most airplanes if they are light and low density altitude often there is enough excess power to overcome the drag and shortest takeoffs can be with full flap.

A Bush trick is to deflect your ailerons fully, then put flaps down to match the deflected aileron, assuming the manufacturer wasn’t stupid the aileron down travel stops at about the point where the drag curve steepens, they do this to reduce induced yaw of course. But flap matching aileron travel is a way to attempt to get the most lift with the least drag, useful for weak over gross airplanes operated in high density altitude, you know common Bush ops.

‘But all of this is mute, if you need to go around, you NEED to go around, you don’t need to be playing games reconfiguring the aircraft. there isn’t time, and last I looked we don’t have a go around button.

However if performing a go around with full flap isn’t to you liking, just slap it up, it will go around with no flap too.

There is no need to be lightning fast on cleaning up the airplane, many fly just fine with the gear down. Take your time be sure of what your doing, immediate action isn’t required.

‘The reason we push the prop all the way in and go to full rich on final is so that if we have to we are configured for a go around.

‘But don’t believe me on any of this,  pick a nice low stress day with little wind or traffic and go out and try it yourself, be easy on the throttle etc during practice, no need to cob it, there isn’t a hog on the runway today, ease into it, and stop if you don’t like it, get some instruction

Has anyone flown a C-150? it had 40 degrees of flap, you could have a steep approach angle with it, but when the 152 came about the flaps were limited to 30 degrees, because at its increased gross weight a go around at 40 degrees didn’t pass.

 

Go out on a nice day and ease into this stuff or if you feel you need to take an instructor along, but don’t have the first time  you have to do an emergency go around be the time the hog appears under your nose, the accident report will read failure to maintain control during a take off, the hog ran away of course and everyone else will think what fool stalls and crashes during a take off?

Edited by A64Pilot
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On 8/26/2020 at 6:24 AM, Nick Pilotte said:

Because this....

https://youtu.be/vyC-2RDSXD0

As others have said, T&G in a complex aircraft increases odds of missing an item or attempting a takeoff with incorrect configuration (flaps or trim not set).  Combine that with rapid full throttle inputs and you can really have a bad day.  

Thats what checklists are for.  Years ago as a copilot on a DC-10 we did T & G's in Stockton. (Before certified simulators).  Use a checklist and you'll be fine.

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13 minutes ago, PeteV said:

Thats what checklists are for.  Years ago as a copilot on a DC-10 we did T & G's in Stockton. (Before certified simulators).  Use a checklist and you'll be fine.


nothing more simple than the landing checklist used in Mooneys...

G.U.M.P.s

Yet... there seems to be a GU landing reported weekly....

 

If we simplified it to seeing a green light before landing...   would that help?

 

PP thoughts only, not a psychologist...

Best regards,

-a-

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If you're the kind of pilot for who everything happens immediately, and is always in a hurry to quickly react... you might not want to do touch and goes in your Mooney.

I've had to go around once in my life for real when a pack of Coyotes darted into the runway just as I was touching down. Even then it felt like I had plenty of time. Nothing needed an immediate reaction. But rather just see, process, and take the appropriate action. I don't understand the thought that things are happening so quickly on final, landing, etc. It never seems that way for me, rather there seems to be plenty of time and no need to rush anything.

I went out and did 10 T&G's in a row after dark to satisfy the requirement for the commercial rating. No hurry, nothing rushed. Just roll out on final, land, roll down the runway a bit, reconfigure, roll on the power, lift off, clean up, climb out, turn downwind, repeat. There's plenty of time, no need to rush or be in a hurry.

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4 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I still think the Mite’s Wig-Wag, rotated 90 degrees, with a through length sufficient to smack the pilots forehead is a good idea. :D

I gotta say, that Mite landing gear warning is one of the coolest things I've ever seen!

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RE checklists, they came into being when on the fly off to decide which bomber would be bought by the Army, a Military test pilot along with a Boeing test pilot took off in the prototype B-17 but forgot to disengage the gust locks, killing them both and destroying the prototyoe, obviously no control check was performed

‘The B-17 lost the fly off as there wasn’t a prototype to fly, but Illegally if memory serves the Army ordered another fly off, because they had seen the superiority of the four engine bomber compared to the twins it flew against. We came very close to entering WWII without the B-17.

‘But checklists are only good if they are used, this was I believe one of the last certification test flights of the Caribou turbine conversion, and yes it took off with the gust locks, locked, and no control sweep was performed.

In the Military we had two types of Emergencies, some required what we called immediate action steps, meaning if you didn’t do something now you were going to crash, others the checklist was allowed to be used as a back uo.

‘An example was ditching power off was immediate action, meaning each step was committed to memory, where as ditching power on wasn’t, for that the checklist was used.

‘I’m still a believer in checklist memorization, back it up of course with the written one when possible.

That along with “blind cockpit drills” meaning sitting in the cockpit going through the emergency procedures and touching each switch, lever etc without looking, done repeatedly it becomes automatic

 

Edited by A64Pilot
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3 more T&Gs today, before the full-stop. 3 of the 4 landings were power off. In a nice crosswind. Two I picked a spot and tried to hit it, got pretty close.

Last time flying, 2 T&Gs, 3 ldgs, a more solid x-wind, had some fun rolling one main on, then the other, then 'go' without the nosewheel ever touching.... enough wind that half-flaps were used on every one. What fun!

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On 4/5/2021 at 2:36 AM, Immelman said:

3 more T&Gs today, before the full-stop. 3 of the 4 landings were power off. In a nice crosswind. Two I picked a spot and tried to hit it, got pretty close.

Last time flying, 2 T&Gs, 3 ldgs, a more solid x-wind, had some fun rolling one main on, then the other, then 'go' without the nosewheel ever touching.... enough wind that half-flaps were used on every one. What fun!


Sounds like you need/want more practice...

:)

-a-

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I don't really care if you do touch and goes or not, I don't, but it is up to you. What I do care about is that if you are going to do a touch and go, don't waddle down the runway or have a cup of coffee at midfield. There are pilots coming in behind you. I fly Angel Flight missions to one of our rural airports where the local college does quite a bit of instruction. I have learned to give the touch and go people about twice as much time as a normal landing to get their butt off the runway. They are busy checklisting and reconfiguring and probably talking about what just happened and texting their friends with a selfie they stopped to take at midfield. Especially at a nontowered airport with no one directing traffic and lots of students in the pattern.

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3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I don't really care if you do touch and goes or not, I don't, but it is up to you. What I do care about is that if you are going to do a touch and go, don't waddle down the runway or have a cup of coffee at midfield. There are pilots coming in behind you. I fly Angel Flight missions to one of our rural airports where the local college does quite a bit of instruction. I have learned to give the touch and go people about twice as much time as a normal landing to get their butt off the runway. They are busy checklisting and reconfiguring and probably talking about what just happened and texting their friends with a selfie they stopped to take at midfield. Especially at a nontowered airport with no one directing traffic and lots of students in the pattern.

Sounds like your local flight school is confusing "touch and go" with "stop and go."

When I do a TnG, speed never drops below 50 mph. Get all wheels down, aim down the runway, reach out one finger to raise the flaps all the way, push throttle forward and lift the nose. Like a go around, positive rate means gear up!

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8 minutes ago, Hank said:

Sounds like your local flight school is confusing "touch and go" with "stop and go."

When I do a TnG, speed never drops below 50 mph. Get all wheels down, aim down the runway, reach out one finger to raise the flaps all the way, push throttle forward and lift the nose. Like a go around, positive rate means gear up!

They don't stop, they just waddle. Forever. Especially the students doing work in twins, which should be more advanced students. 

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Touch and go’s are just that, touch and go. A touch and go has the runway cleared faster than a full stop, cause your only on the ground for 2 sec or so.

I don’t understand this reconfiguring and getting the checklist out.

‘Even in a 152 I was taught touch, full throttle, take off, retract flaps to half, then fully retract after climbing some, carb heat was pushed in on short final so all you had to do was add throttle.

‘If your trying to retrim, retract flaps and I don’t know but maybe open cowl flaps and other things before you go, you guys are right, with all these steps your likely to screw something up.

Touch, then go, after you go, methodically clean up the cockpit, don’t get in a hurry though, it’s not a timed event, she climbs just fine at full flaps, even with the gear down, go out and try it and see.

Edited by A64Pilot
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10 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Touch and go’s are just that, touch and go. A touch and go has the runway cleared faster than a full stop, cause your only on the ground for 2 sec or so.

I don’t understand this reconfiguring and getting the checklist out.

‘Even in a 152 I was taught touch, full throttle, take off, retract flaps to half, then fully retract after climbing some, carb heat was pushed in on short final so all you had to do was add throttle.

‘If your trying to retrim, retract flaps and I don’t know but maybe open cowl flaps and other things before you go, you guys are right, with all these steps your likely to screw something up.

Touch, then go, after you go, methodically clean up the cockpit, don’t get in a hurry though, it’s not a timed event, she climbs just fine at full flaps, even with the gear down, go out and try it and see.

Funny you should mention a 152 ( which only had 30 degree flaps) as opposed to a 150 (which has 40 degrees flaps). I was told that on a 150 if you didn’t retract you would “splack “....

that being said, on a m20j, you better have that prop on (or near) full forward or you will be scaringly disappointed with your climb rate...

when I was trying to add to my cross country hours (prior to ifr) my cruise was 22/22.   Then I would do a touch and go at an airport...when I failed to go full forward I was climbing at like 200 feet per minute...it put a scare in me

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A 150 even with 40 degrees of flap at certification altitudes would go around with full flap, even if marginally. I believe the 152 had a increased gross weight and the higher gross weight took marginal to ain’t happening, so the flaps were reduced to 30 degrees or so I was told. Of course there are some airfields at an altitude that a 150 or 152 can’t take off regardless of flap setting.

‘But flap settings are sometimes other things too, for instance the piston engine Thrush crop duster has 40 degrees of flap, but the factory turbine only has 15 degrees, the reason for 15 degrees is the excessive attitude change on a full power go around was excessive so the flaps were reduced, but there are STC’s that put a turbine on a Thrush that keep the 40 degrees of flap.

You don’t need flaps to slow down on a turbine, the prop min pitch can be set flat enough so that it’s a huge speed brake, much more effective to slow you than flaps, and 15 degrees on that airplane is about where you get the most lift without a lot of drag.

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5 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

 

that being said, on a m20j, you better have that prop on (or near) full forward or you will be scaringly disappointed with your climb rate...

 

That’s with any airplane and some you could even damage the engine  if you don’t, some have manifold pressure vs RPM limits

‘I go full prop and full rich on final, by doing it on final, the RPM stays the same, I was taught at a school that was meant to produce airline pilots and they start off of course in small aircraft, and they taught to not upset the passengers, so no warning horns were supposed to go off, no sudden revving up of the engines etc, of course that’s not possible on a turbine, the props are going to speed up.

‘But they did teach differently, for instance the second you got a hold clearance you were supposed to configure for min fuel consumption because of course the purpose of holding is to waste time, so save fuel while wasting time.

 

Going around with prop at cruise settings like taking off on one mag, many will say they won’t, they always use the checklist, but fly long enough and you’ll eventually do it. Same with carb heat if you have one

Edited by A64Pilot
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On 4/15/2021 at 12:47 PM, larrynimmo said:

Funny you should mention a 152 ( which only had 30 degree flaps) as opposed to a 150 (which has 40 degrees flaps). I was told that on a 150 if you didn’t retract you would “splack “....

I would think twice on doing TnG in any "draggy aircraft" where one can't accelerate between VS0 & VS1 or VX with full flaps due to config, weight, power, altitude, temps... and with electric flaps, it will be funny if these fail to retract on a short runway?

C150 does fall under that category, also add that W&B and Perf with 2pob & fuel is near the edge when using pen & paper :lol:

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14 hours ago, Ibra said:

I would think twice on doing TnG in any "draggy aircraft" where one can't accelerate between VS0 & VS1 or VX with full flaps due to config, weight, power, altitude, temps... and with electric flaps, it will be funny if these fail to retract on a short runway?

C150 does fall under that category, also add that W&B and Perf with 2pob & fuel is near the edge when using pen & paper :lol:

A 150 can accelerate and fly and even climb at lower density altitudes at gross weight and full flaps, although not well

‘However it can’t at high DA, many aircraft can’t.

But the issue isn’t doing T&G’s, the issue is putting your self into a situation where a go around or missed approach isn’t possible, that should be avoided, try not to commit to an approach that there is no way out. If you can’t go around what’s your plan when there is a runway incursion?

A LOT of cessna’s have 40 degrees flap. it’s not unusual, a 182 my Father had did for instance, Cessna went through all the trouble and expense to build those big Fowler flaps, it became sort of a trademark for Cessna to have real effective flaps.

Maybe it was a hold over from the L-19’s 60 degrees of flap?

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