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Touch and Go's not recommended? Why?


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20 hours ago, Hank said:

I land with at least Takeoff flaps (15° vs 33°), and have no trouble operating from an obstructed 3000' field. On a 2000' grass strip, I am weight-limited on departure, so landing isn't an issue either. So I guess I'm comfortable "chewing up" all of that runway with my extra speed.

Full flaps lowers my stall speed from 64 mph to 57 mph; my flaps are almost always somewhere in between, as I have never found the elusive airport where wind and temperature are always the same, to say nothing of my downwind distance from the runway, point where I turn base, glide angle on final, etc. Lots of variations in my plane, so lots of variation in flight controls including Flaps.

Some day, when the chips are down you might need to squeeze into something tighter.  Having the experience and muscle memory landing slower with your flaps might come in real handy at that point.  I don't always land within 1500 feet, but I always try.

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Just now, steingar said:

Some day, when the chips are down you might need to squeeze into something tighter.  Having the experience and muscle memory landing slower with your flaps might come in real handy at that point.  I don't always land within 1500 feet, but I always try.

As in the Manual above, I add more flaps when and if needed. Not always . . . . They are needed "always."

I could land a lot shorter than I do simply by braking hard as soon as the nose wheel comes down. But since I pay for brakes shoes, I don't touch them until under 50 mph, well below Full Flap stall speed. And I only brake "hard" when I need to, again not all the time.

There have only been about 3 times since Mar 1992 (when I bought my first equipped vehicle) that I've needed ABS brakes on my car, and those are the only times I've stomped on the brakes hard enough to activate them. Should I floor the brakes and stop short every time so that I'm "ready" when I need to?

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Well, we have had this discussion before, and probably many times. My experience with it is if you carry that much flaps and plan on landing fat and sassy every time, you will have unfortunate experiences where you find yourself 45 degrees to the runway in a gust just above the tarmac, or you will carry some speed to deal with that and have a balloon fiesta on your hands. If you carry half or no flaps the aircraft will tend to stay on the tarmac once you put it there. Maybe it is different in the short bodies.

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On 9/2/2020 at 3:09 PM, ArtVandelay said:


The POH says no, see page below. That’s a difference of 1-2 knots between full and 0° flaps.

3a5f736925445d0dba444a6d6c90f402.jpg

Just look at the data and you will see a tremendous difference. Go with 2740#...the difference between 15 degree and full flaps is only 1knot in indicated airspeed...BUT in calculated air speed ther is 4knot difference which translates to about 5 mph...now that is a real difference.

from an unscientific observation, I find when I touchdown with full flaps that the energy needed to fly diminishes very quickly

that being said, I don’t use full flaps for strong crosswinds, during turbulence and when practicing touch and goes

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Just look at the data and you will see a tremendous difference. Go with 2740#...the difference between 15 degree and full flaps is only 1knot in indicated airspeed...BUT in calculated air speed ther is 4knot difference which translates to about 5 mph...now that is a real difference.
from an unscientific observation, I find when I touchdown with full flaps that the energy needed to fly diminishes very quickly
that being said, I don’t use full flaps for strong crosswinds, during turbulence and when practicing touch and goes

I assume you mean calibrated, not calculated...again from the J POH....unless you have cowl flaps open there’s almost no difference...and with cowl flaps open it’s a 2 knot difference.

But I agree with 2nd part and my SOP is the same.
d1b0b4db915bdc8d303b7532fe965f0e.jpg
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Full flaps, half flaps or no flaps...these things are not that hard to land in any position.  The procedure is the same, the sight picture just a bit different.  I like steeper full flap approaches.  It's quite alright with me if other's don't...  I also think T and Gs are a piece of cake in my bird.  I (parish the thought) raise the flaps to take off position on the roll (sacrilege) and then take off.  It's ok if other's think I'll shoot my eye out.  I've been doing them for more than 15 years with no drama.  If T&Gs seem like a sketchy or dramatic operation to a pilot, that pilot probably shouldn't do them.  If no regulations are violated I'm pretty libertarian on the operations and procedures of others.  I do get a little preachy about short final speeds sometimes but only because I've seen several Mooneys needlessly end up in the weeds.

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I don't believe that T&G's are dangerous, I just believe and have been proven, they develop bad habits. If you are prepared not to transfer that bad habit in a time of stress 100%, be my guest. I however, believe in training like you fight and fight like you train and for that reason, I discourage their use.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/2/2020 at 8:01 PM, jlunseth said:

My experience with it is if you carry that much flaps and plan on landing fat and sassy every time, you will have unfortunate experiences where you find yourself 45 degrees to the runway in a gust just above the tarmac, or you will carry some speed to deal with that and have a balloon fiesta on your hands

I so a tiny sideslip on M20J as I flare, just a tiny little is enough to stick the aircraft to ground on touchdown, it burns those extra 2kts from sloppy touchdown speed, I can't dynamically touch Mooney electric flaps on flare or rotate (no POH allow that) but I use tiny bit of sideslip to help keeping the bird in my hands untill she is ready to liftoff or land straight, it works on rough air  with gusts or rough surface with bumps as long as the runway is long enough...

More a backcountry flying (maybe not advisable or needed for landing on flat wide tarmac) but you can always argue that a tiny load on the tires will comes way cheaper than a tiny load on the propeller ;)

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I just spent five days doing touch and goes in my 252. I logged at least 8 and sometimes 12 each day. I was working on the Commercial maneuvers which include several types of landings. It was a lot of touch and goes. 

Anyway, everything worked out, no problems.

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I've done them in my E, no problem on my home field of 3,200'

Usually will only do on request of a instructor, If I'm doing pattern work by myself, I like to taxi back to give myself time to reflect on the landing and the technique I used. :angry:

More challenging in the Mooney is a go around initiated from the pre touchdown flare position. If you can master that, T&G's are no problem.

 

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On 9/21/2020 at 1:58 PM, oldguyscanfly said:

More challenging in the Mooney is a go around initiated from the pre touchdown flare position. If you can master that, T&G's are no problem.

Some wise soul here wrote that the key to getting this right was to add power as the plane is reconfigured, not in one big push; I now go to something that gives me a slight climb, but doesn't make me fight the controls, then clean up (gear, trim) and add the rest in.

Just last weekend did a go-around for real, when a plane in front of me decided to backtrack instead of exiting at the next taxiway, and while it wasn't exactly from a flare, it went well.

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I often attribute that brilliant piece of advice to a CFII and MSer known as Cris...

What we are taught in primary flying lessons, may not exactly apply with 300+hp and full flaps....

It helps to be able to multi-task at a high level... while doing this...

Feeding in power, changing configurations, maintaining KIAS, start the climb....

It really helps to have power trim... but even then, it doesn’t seem to operate quickly enough...
 

:)

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...
 

Best regards,

-a-

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The school I instruct for flies Piper Warriors, 172s and we rent a ‘77 201. I am completely comfortable doing touch and goes in the PA-28 and the 172 due to the trim and flap arrangements. Drop the broom handle in the Warrior, move the switch all the way up in the 172. Both very tactile, as is resetting the trim in both models. 
 

I do NOT regularly do TnGs in the Mooney, avoiding them as much as possible in fact.  I’m not really worried about accidentally grabbing the gear handle instead of the flaps, but the trim and flaps are both electric and the position indicator is practically on the floor. Way too much heads down time making sure the trim is back to neutral and the flaps to TO for my comfort as I’m rolling down the runway. I practice stop and goes pretty routinely though, at the Class D airport we operate out of. 

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Welcome aboard, PHF...

 

15 minutes ago, PHFlyer08 said:

I’m not really worried about accidentally grabbing the gear handle instead of the flaps, 

This is pretty much what the other people were thinking just before the grinding metal sounds began...  :)

That, and a recent memory of putting the gear down left in place from the prior run around the pattern...
 

Just some additional stress, or need to rush things a bit... something to get out of the ordinary...

Do you get to do much training with the 201?

What are the typical customers for that plane looking to do?
 

PP  thoughts and honest interest in your experience...

Best regards,

-a-

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The school I instruct for flies Piper Warriors, 172s and we rent a ‘77 201. I am completely comfortable doing touch and goes in the PA-28 and the 172 due to the trim and flap arrangements. Drop the broom handle in the Warrior, move the switch all the way up in the 172. Both very tactile, as is resetting the trim in both models. 
 
I do NOT regularly do TnGs in the Mooney, avoiding them as much as possible in fact.  I’m not really worried about accidentally grabbing the gear handle instead of the flaps, but the trim and flaps are both electric and the position indicator is practically on the floor. Way too much heads down time making sure the trim is back to neutral and the flaps to TO for my comfort as I’m rolling down the runway. I practice stop and goes pretty routinely though, at the Class D airport we operate out of. 

You can always do them with just half flaps, so only thing that needs to be done with any urgency is trim.
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I did a zillion or so T&G's doing the three day Commercial course at GATTS. But the conditions were good...

  • 7000 ft runway, so plenty of room to reconfigure while rolling
  • retract the flaps without looking (no flap takeoffs are easy and actually recommended by Mooney)
  • start rolling the trim out
  • advance the power to full
  • keep rolling the trim out as you lift off (electric trim) You can feel when trim is appropriate without looking
  • slow everything down, there's no hurry to get off the runway stay ahead of the airplane
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High time pilot on way home from long XC, on approach everything looking good until the Cirrus pulls onto Rnwy while Mooney's short final.  Mooney initiates go-around, back on final, speed really fast, not slowing down as normal, but continues 2nd the approach anyway, now there is a Cessna holding short of Rnwy.  Approaching the threshold over the radio he hears "Mooney abort abort, your landing gear is up. " That guy saved his Mooney went around again and landed safely. 

Cannot remember where I read this story, but pilot had something like 15k hours.  Seems implausible since our gear acts as a speed brake.  But...can happen to anyone

Heard others say don't want to risk a gear issue and cycling over and over can only increase your chances of an issue as compared to one cycle of gear. 

Last possible urban myth I heard is that the IO360 doesn't like the power changes full power then pulling way back when TPA, then full power again within short period, then idle again ect.   

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