Mooney and Flying Family

[LevelWing]

How many here have traveled with their families that consist of at least young 1-2 kids (or dog) and the required gear that goes with it? Items such as strollers, Pack-N-Plays, usual luggage, etc. I know my M20C does not have the weight allowance for all of that and the physical space may or may not exist. Do other Mooneys?

I'm potentially looking at selling the M20C in order to get something like a Piper Lance or equivalent because of the extra load allowances but if there's a Mooney that can accomplish that, I'd like to look at that as well. I'm obviously partial to Mooney.

I'm not sure a Mooney that can handle this exists given that the J's and up have higher fuel capacities which brings down the payload further. Any thoughts or suggestions? 

[gsxrpilot]

Kinda like having to give up the 911 because the car seats don't fit in the space Porsche calls the back seats. With a growing family and all that goes with it, you might be in the market for an SUV or, horror, a Mini-van. Then when the kids are grown to the point they don't want to associate with you anymore, you can get back into the sports car.

[LevelWing]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Kinda like having to give up the 911 because the car seats don't fit in the space Porsche calls the back seats. With a growing family and all that goes with it, you might be in the market for an SUV or, horror, a Mini-van. Then when the kids are grown to the point they don't want to associate with you anymore, you can get back into the sports car.

That has been my general analogy as well, much to my disappointment. I was hoping I could get away with it in a K or Bravo but I think that's been more wishful hoping on my part. 

[jlunseth]

Well, the Ks generally have a good useful load. Its after the Ks that the useful load tends to fall, although speed and equipment go up.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, LevelWing said:

That has been my general analogy as well, much to my disappointment. I was hoping I could get away with it in a K or Bravo but I think that's been more wishful hoping on my part. 

The Mooneys with the best useful load are the F, the K Encore, and the Eagles. But 1100 lbs useful, is about the most you can hope for. The Eagle will have the most room. And never mind the larger fuel tanks. You don't have to fill them. 

My K rarely flies with full tanks. I just don't often need 7 hours of fuel 

[Schllc]

I have a family of four, myself and three ladies, all around the 100# except me 170#

with the dog and minimal bags I can still take on 55 gallons legally in an acclaim with AC, which is easily 2.5-3 hours with reserves. 
this is about the bathroom time limit for us anyway. 

room has never really been a problem for us in a long body. 

[LevelWing]

33 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The Mooneys with the best useful load are the F, the K Encore, and the Eagles. But 1100 lbs useful, is about the most you can hope for. The Eagle will have the most room. And never mind the larger fuel tanks. You don't have to fill them. 

My K rarely flies with full tanks. I just don't often need 7 hours of fuel 

That's a great point. How much fuel burn do you plan for on take off/climb out? The M20K's have 75gal capacity, but if you only fill them to 50gals then you're saving 150lbs right there - more if you can get away with carrying less. Any other info you can provide on fuel burn, duration, recommended fueling amounts, etc. would also be helpful as I dive into this further.

29 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I have a family of four, myself and three ladies, all around the 100# except me 170#

with the dog and minimal bags I can still take on 55 gallons legally in an acclaim with AC, which is easily 2.5-3 hours with reserves. 
this is about the bathroom time limit for us anyway. 

room has never really been a problem for us in a long body. 

Thanks, this is really helpful. I figure I can find some lightweight Pack-N-Plays and stroller which will also add some payload capacity back.

What prompted this was when the avionics shop quoted me $24k for the panel upgrade. Knowing I'd run out of weight quickly with the little one growing, I figured I could take that money and put it towards a bigger plane. If I can have a bigger, faster Mooney and still be able to put the family in it and safely travel, that's a win as far as I'm concerned.

[Tx_Aggie]

I just bought a J with ~870 useful load. We’re a family of three with a toddler. Wife sits in the back with the little guy/car seat . We put the wife suitcase (heaviest) + pack and play (baby bjorn, a little pricy but folds up easy and light weight), uppababy stroller and lightweight diaper bag in cargo area, my bag and baby bag in front seat. Still allows for 3-4 hours of fuel burn at 11.5 gph. It can be done, and not as uncomfortable as you might think. It could be difficult in a small body however. 

[Schllc]

In a long body ovation I found 15.5gph to be a flat rate fuel burn to plan with. 
climb more or less negated by descent. 
In the long body acclaim, I plan for 17.5 generally but at full gross I plan for 16.5.

In my experience I have found that the TN mooney’s can be flown at numbers almost identical to the NA engines if desired. I’ve owned two ovations and two acclaims and I am not speaking anecdotally. I have also flown identical routes for years in both models and I am completely comfortable with my experience/assessment. 
 

lastly, from everything I have read about mooney’s it seems the limit on the UL is the gear, not the airframe/airfoil. I participated in a ferry flight of an O3 that was close to 600# Over gross and you could barely tell the difference in any phase of flight. Even take off roll was barely affected. 
let’s hope someone eventually figures out a fix for the gear for us!

[gsxrpilot]

18 minutes ago, LevelWing said:

That's a great point. How much fuel burn do you plan for on take off/climb out? The M20K's have 75gal capacity, but if you only fill them to 50gals then you're saving 150lbs right there - more if you can get away with carrying less. Any other info you can provide on fuel burn, duration, recommended fueling amounts, etc. would also be helpful as I dive into this further.

My K burns about 25 gph for take off and climb. The turbo climbs full rich all the way to cruise altitude. Leaving Denver, at 5500 ft. MSL, 30 minutes will get you to FL250 or FL270. So I usually just figure on 15 minutes in the climb. Once leveling off, it's 9.5 gph all the way to the destination. I usually depart with 40 or 50 gal on board. My friend in his 182 still has to stop for gas before I do.

[carusoam]

M20C with a pair of kids... up to 10yrs old...

If the kids are spaced apart in years... only one car seat comfortably fits at a time...
 

The older one wants the booster seat...

Some long bodies were built with the optional bench seat in the back... with three sets of seat belts...

 

So...

For modern load hauling capability... the Eagle has been light weighted by leaving out some options...

 

The tough years... parents are young, kids come with all kinds of extra stuff...

We went with back packs instead of strollers... 

Firebirds in place of SUVs... (normal for NJ)

Until the kids got full size...

 

Then I learned the phrase... if it fits in a Tahoe it fits in the O....   (-David McG)

The baggage area is that much bigger...

The family of four easily fits in a Long body...

A family of five is outside of my experience....

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[NJMac]

My wife and I keep having this conversation. Translation, I keep wanting to upgrade and she keeps finding ways to continue to make our E work.

I just shared this photo in a different thread. We've found that when traveling together (not our primary plane mission), pulling the front right seat leaves her with a lot of room to care for our child in the back. Not shown in the foreground was 2 large luggage items. Behind them was our pack and play and a few other bulky items. I did the W&B multiple different ways, TO and landing, and we were inside the envelope the whole time.

We both would like a 2nd child in the next year or so. Hopefully by then child 1 can sit right seat way forward, leaving her and youngest in the back.

I brought this up on the FB group a month or so back. Our working plan at that point is just to fly with overnight bags and ship anything we need to the designation FBO. Should work until they size out. Don't want a flying SUV any sooner or longer than necessary

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Ragsf15e]

I have 4 year old twins in an F.  Fuel and load is fine for occasional 520nm trip to grandparents (nonstop because it’s across eastern Oregon and northern Nevada).  Lots of weekend trips in the 200-300nm range.  Bringing carseats for the rental is the biggest pia but I can fit two of the small cheap ones in the luggage and still have room for bags.  Day trips requiring  carseat in a courtesy car are too much pia, but I did put their bikes in there!

The longbody has a bigger luggage and you don’t need all that gas to go far. I have 1035 useful load and that’s more than enough but I wouldn’t mind the bigger luggage.

 You probably need to bring carseats, but you can probably live without strollers and pack and play at your destination or borrow.  Those are items lots of people have.

[MikeOH]

1035 lbs!! Dang, Rags I'm jealous.

I've only 970 in my F...time for a diet, I guess.

[Ragsf15e]

21 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

1035 lbs!! Dang, Rags I'm jealous.

I've only 970 in my F...time for a diet, I guess.

Wow, that is a big difference.  I have a 3 blade prop that adds something like 35lbs too.  What are you carrying around??  I did ditch the vacuum pump and king hsi and old adi, so that added some but i was already about 1020ish before.

[MikeOH]

Yeah, I have the two blade prop.  Is yours electric gear like mine?  No idea how much that adds.  I have an STEC-30 AP with altitude hold.  Speed brakes. Still, seems like close to 100 lbs if you take out the 3 blade prop.  I guess I should spend some quality time with the W&B...

[Niko182]

the Eagle can definitely do it, and it's quite comfortable with four to be completely honest. The main part that tends to be the issue is getting everything in. Once its in, it'll carry it. As far as useful loads go. Most eagles tend to have in between 1125 and 1175 lbs. That gives you 800lbs and 60 gallons give or take. If you plan on keeping the plane for a while, The Eagle is the one to go for. You need space and the Eagle has the most space with the most useful load of any Mooney.

[Danb]

My issue with passengers have been there ability or no ability to get out of my plane, my UL over 1000 for a Bravo is good but my golfing buddies are ver 70 yrs old, out of shape not size wise but mobility wise, at Hilton Head in November I couldn’t get Jim out of the plane, we ended up having the line guys felt me get him out, if I had an emergency I’d be out of luck. It’s now part of preflight preparation to teach them how to get out, I took the week at HH training him how to get out. Also don’t believe what they say there weight is, all part of W & B decision making.

[wcb]

@MikeOH @Ragsf15e  @LevelWing And I am at 1050 and thinking of adding the light weight starter and alternator to get a little more.  At some point the MT prop.  If I do those three that will then get me really close to 1100.  All that being said I rarely fly with more than one passenger and almost never with three passengers.  Why do I need the useful load?  (because it is cool to say I have 1100 or one day I might really need that extra 50lbs?)

 

@Schllc "with the dog and minimal bags I can still take on 55 gallons legally in an acclaim with AC, which is easily 2.5-3 hours with reserves. 
this is about the bathroom time limit for us anyway. "

And just think at about 3 hrs in the Acclaim means  _____ NM or that it would have taken ______ hours to drive or for the original poster question _____ better or worse than a Piper Lance.

[Nippernaper]

 

My wife and two kids have been flying with me since our youngest was born.  They're older now, but we were able to make it work when they were in the car-seat ages.  Mostly in Warriors and C172's, now in a J.  The issue in the early years really isn't weight, it's room for all the stuff that young kids seem to create.  The biggest PIA is getting the car seats in and out.  Not much room to work with, seatbelts that are difficult to adjust correctly, no shoulder belt in most back seats.  We found that if you pack carefully, then you can make it work with two children and two adults.  Baggage space in a warrior is about the same as in a J (and I'm guessing a C).  Once your kids start to get older, the issue moves to useful load.  With the Mooney, you need less fuel to go the same distance as just about any other plane, so you can down-fuel to get some additional load.  It takes patience, some forethought, but you can do it!  It's always nice to see other flying families; we're usually the only ones on the ramp with kids.

[mooniac15u]

We traveled extensively in our M20D with two small kids.  We never brought larger items like a pack & play.  We would find hotels or rentals that had a pack & play or rollaway crib.  We used a cheap umbrella stroller that we weren't afraid to leave behind if needed.  We carefully measured car seats before buying to make sure we could get two in the back seat of the Mooney.  We found that Britax seats generally had the smallest footprints.  As the kids got bigger they weighed more but they needed less stuff so it wasn't much change in load for a while.  Eventually they got big enough that leg room became an issue (I'm 6'5" so there was no leg room behind me).  We traded up to an M20J and everyone has room.  The J has bigger tanks but it also has tabs at 25 gallons so I usually only fill it to there.  I go faster for the same fuel burn in the J so 50 gallons gives me better range than I had in the D.  My J has slightly less useful load but everyone knows how to pack light because they've been doing it for so long.  I spend a lot of time departing near max gross.

[mooniac15u]

On 8/23/2020 at 2:32 PM, NJMac said:

My wife and I keep having this conversation. Translation, I keep wanting to upgrade and she keeps finding ways to continue to make our E work.

I just shared this photo in a different thread. We've found that when traveling together (not our primary plane mission), pulling the front right seat leaves her with a lot of room to care for our child in the back. Not shown in the foreground was 2 large luggage items. Behind them was our pack and play and a few other bulky items. I did the W&B multiple different ways, TO and landing, and we were inside the envelope the whole time.

We both would like a 2nd child in the next year or so. Hopefully by then child 1 can sit right seat way forward, leaving her and youngest in the back.

I brought this up on the FB group a month or so back. Our working plan at that point is just to fly with overnight bags and ship anything we need to the designation FBO. Should work until they size out. Don't want a flying SUV any sooner or longer than necessary

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 

We thought about putting a kid in the front right seat but I tested it on the ground and the car seat interfered with the yoke.

[LevelWing]

On 8/23/2020 at 11:43 AM, Tx_Aggie said:

I just bought a J with ~870 useful load. We’re a family of three with a toddler. Wife sits in the back with the little guy/car seat . We put the wife suitcase (heaviest) + pack and play (baby bjorn, a little pricy but folds up easy and light weight), uppababy stroller and lightweight diaper bag in cargo area, my bag and baby bag in front seat. Still allows for 3-4 hours of fuel burn at 11.5 gph. It can be done, and not as uncomfortable as you might think. It could be difficult in a small body however. 

Thanks, this is helpful. We can find a different stroller and we're already looking for a lighter weight Pack-N-Play so we'll check out the one you have. I've probably also over-estimated weights already, but I'd rather over estimate than underestimate.

On 8/23/2020 at 11:49 AM, gsxrpilot said:

My K burns about 25 gph for take off and climb. The turbo climbs full rich all the way to cruise altitude. Leaving Denver, at 5500 ft. MSL, 30 minutes will get you to FL250 or FL270. So I usually just figure on 15 minutes in the climb. Once leveling off, it's 9.5 gph all the way to the destination. I usually depart with 40 or 50 gal on board. My friend in his 182 still has to stop for gas before I do.

I didn't realize you dialed it back that much. What kind of speeds are you seeing when you're running at 9.5gph?

On 8/23/2020 at 2:32 PM, NJMac said:

My wife and I keep having this conversation. Translation, I keep wanting to upgrade and she keeps finding ways to continue to make our E work.

I just shared this photo in a different thread. We've found that when traveling together (not our primary plane mission), pulling the front right seat leaves her with a lot of room to care for our child in the back. Not shown in the foreground was 2 large luggage items. Behind them was our pack and play and a few other bulky items. I did the W&B multiple different ways, TO and landing, and we were inside the envelope the whole time.

We both would like a 2nd child in the next year or so. Hopefully by then child 1 can sit right seat way forward, leaving her and youngest in the back.

I brought this up on the FB group a month or so back. Our working plan at that point is just to fly with overnight bags and ship anything we need to the designation FBO. Should work until they size out. Don't want a flying SUV any sooner or longer than necessary

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 

 

17 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the Eagle can definitely do it, and it's quite comfortable with four to be completely honest. The main part that tends to be the issue is getting everything in. Once its in, it'll carry it. As far as useful loads go. Most eagles tend to have in between 1125 and 1175 lbs. That gives you 800lbs and 60 gallons give or take. If you plan on keeping the plane for a while, The Eagle is the one to go for. You need space and the Eagle has the most space with the most useful load of any Mooney.

 

8 hours ago, Nippernaper said:

 

My wife and two kids have been flying with me since our youngest was born.  They're older now, but we were able to make it work when they were in the car-seat ages.  Mostly in Warriors and C172's, now in a J.  The issue in the early years really isn't weight, it's room for all the stuff that young kids seem to create.  The biggest PIA is getting the car seats in and out.  Not much room to work with, seatbelts that are difficult to adjust correctly, no shoulder belt in most back seats.  We found that if you pack carefully, then you can make it work with two children and two adults.  Baggage space in a warrior is about the same as in a J (and I'm guessing a C).  Once your kids start to get older, the issue moves to useful load.  With the Mooney, you need less fuel to go the same distance as just about any other plane, so you can down-fuel to get some additional load.  It takes patience, some forethought, but you can do it!  It's always nice to see other flying families; we're usually the only ones on the ramp with kids.

 

4 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

We traveled extensively in our M20D with two small kids.  We never brought larger items like a pack & play.  We would find hotels or rentals that had a pack & play or rollaway crib.  We used a cheap umbrella stroller that we weren't afraid to leave behind if needed.  We carefully measured car seats before buying to make sure we could get two in the back seat of the Mooney.  We found that Britax seats generally had the smallest footprints.  As the kids got bigger they weighed more but they needed less stuff so it wasn't much change in load for a while.  Eventually they got big enough that leg room became an issue (I'm 6'5" so there was no leg room behind me).  We traded up to an M20J and everyone has room.  The J has bigger tanks but it also has tabs at 25 gallons so I usually only fill it to there.  I go faster for the same fuel burn in the J so 50 gallons gives me better range than I had in the D.  My J has slightly less useful load but everyone knows how to pack light because they've been doing it for so long.  I spend a lot of time departing near max gross.

Thank you for all the anecdotes and walking me through how you've accomplished this. It appears that the M20K is a viable option. Now it's a matter of finding the right one and going from there. I've been doing a lot of searching on the forums and reading.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice, I'm looking forward to any other responses as well.

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

We thought about putting a kid in the front right seat but I tested it on the ground and the car seat interfered with the yoke.

Yeah I tried the same, no go.  The kids don’t need to sit in carseats in the airplane to be legal but if they do, at least the seat didn’t take up luggage room.  Carseats are pretty tough to get in/out of a midbody behind/over the front passenger seat (although mine has non removable headrests).  I fit them, yes two carseats, into the luggage as soon as the kids could sit up without them.  I feel like a jenga master.

As soon as my son could/would follow simple instructions and wear his headset properly, maybe 3ish, we put him in the front seat (no carseat) and wife/daughter in the back.  Sometimes it’s mayhem.  The isolate button on the intercom is your friend during departure and nearing the pattern.

[mooniac15u]

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah I tried the same, no go.  The kids don’t need to sit in carseats in the airplane to be legal but if they do, at least the seat didn’t take up luggage room.  Carseats are pretty tough to get in/out of a midbody behind/over the front passenger seat (although mine has non removable headrests).  I fit them, yes two carseats, into the luggage as soon as the kids could sit up without them.  I feel like a jenga master.

As soon as my son could/would follow simple instructions and wear his headset properly, maybe 3ish, we put him in the front seat (no carseat) and wife/daughter in the back.  Sometimes it’s mayhem.  The isolate button on the intercom is your friend during departure and nearing the pattern.

Did you only use car seats in your car because you were legally required to?  I always had the kids in car seats in the plane because the kids were too small for the adult-sized seat belts to properly protect them in the event of an accident.  The lack of shoulder harnesses in the rear seat of short body Mooneys was another reason to favor using the car seats.