Extending the service life of the Garmin GNS430W / GPS400W

[Bob E]

(FYI:  I have zero affiliation with Garmin.  I'm just a Mooney owner based in Ohio.  This isn't an ad, just my opinion!)

My M20C has a pretty decent IFR panel (photo below):  a Garmin GPS400W that drives two G5's (one as PFD and the other as HSI), and is also connected into a GTX-345 transponder that -- since it has bluetooth -- sends position data plus ADS/B traffic and weather to my two iPad minis running ForeFlight.  (The GPS400W is the same as a GNS430W without the nav/coms.  I have two KX-155's because I like to keep radios separate from the GPS.)  The units are all connected together via Garmin's "Connext" network setup.  It all works great, and the setup makes it easy to fly pretty much whatever approach I want.

But here's the thing:  Even though they are fully compatible with G5's and other newer units thanks to the Connext networking standard, even though there's a huge installed base of these units, and even though Garmin will support them for many years to come, the 400W, like the 430W, is a legacy unit.  The biggest drawback (to me) is that every single fix, every single approach, has to be entered one letter at a time -- twist, select, enter, twist, select, enter..... it takes FOREVER!  Entering a single flight plan can take 15 minutes, and if you have to change anything like an approach in mid-flight, it's distracting.  I was thinking about maybe upgrading to a GPS 175, but that's pricey, and installation isn't rack-compatible with the 430W series, so that would be expensive too.  And even with the GPS 175, you still have to twist knobs, scroll through menus, and press select to enter waypoints!

In ForeFlight, I can enter flight plans at home or in the aircraft by simply typing in the identifiers of the waypoints I want, and they appear instantly on the map. I can change waypoints or approaches instantly.  If only I could send the ForeFlight data to the 400W.  So I looked around and found the answer to my prayers!  (Even though I'm not even religious. )  Garmin has a little box called the Flight Stream 210 that enables precisely that.  It gives the 400W / 430W a bluetooth connection and the capability of synching with ForeFlight.  Installed price was well under 2 AMUs.  I couldn't resist.

It's the best of all possible worlds -- its bluetooth connection still sends all the position data and ADS/B traffic and weather data to the iPads (I switched off the GTX-345 bluetooth).  But now I can enter a flight plan or waypoints into ForeFlight, press the "send to panel" icon, and a message pops up on the 400W "accept flight plan data?"  I press "enter" on the 400W, and the flight plan is instantly loaded into the 400W.  It automatically synchs with the other iPad too!  If I want to add an approach, I can do that in seconds on the fly - pun intended - and transfer it to the 400W instantly.  No more twisting knobs!  If I want, I can enter changes on the 400W and they will synch back to the iPads too, but thus far the only thing I've found it makes sense to do in that direction is deleting waypoints to go direct.

To me, this is a far better setup than the 175 or even the big glass screens.  I have the simple, clean screen of the 400W and the super-fast, easy functionality of ForeFlight.  The Flight Stream 210 just breathed years of new life into my legacy Garmin WAAS GPS.   The one missing item (the big blank space in the photo) is for a GFC-500 autopilot if they ever certify it for the M20C!  (Garmin is obviously giving me time to save up for it.)

Edited August 21, 2020 by Bob E

[Marauder]

(FYI:  I have zero affiliation with Garmin.  I'm just a Mooney owner based in Ohio.  This isn't an ad, just my opinion!)
My M20C has a pretty decent IFR panel (photo below):  a Garmin GPS400W that drives two G5's (one as PFD and the other as HSI), and is also connected into a GTX-345 transponder that -- since it has bluetooth -- sends position data plus ADS/B traffic and weather to my two iPad minis running ForeFlight.  (The GPS400W is the same as a GNS430W without the nav/coms.  I have two KX-155's because I like to keep radios separate from the GPS.)  The units are all connected together via Garmin's "Connext" network setup.  It all works great, and the setup makes it easy to fly pretty much whatever approach I want.
But here's the thing:  Even though they are fully compatible with G5's and other newer units thanks to the Connext networking standard, even though there's a huge installed base of these units, and even though Garmin will support them for many years to come, the 400W, like the 430W, is a legacy unit.  The biggest drawback (to me) is that every single fix, every single approach, has to be entered one letter at a time -- twist, select, enter, twist, select, enter..... it takes FOREVER!  Entering a single flight plan can take 15 minutes, and if you have to change anything like an approach in mid-flight, it's distracting.  I was thinking about maybe upgrading to a GPS 175, but that's pricey, and installation isn't rack-compatible with the 430W series, so that would be expensive too.  And even with the GPS 175, you still have to twist knobs, scroll through menus, and press select to enter waypoints!
In ForeFlight, I can enter flight plans at home or in the aircraft by simply typing in the identifiers of the waypoints I want, and they appear instantly on the map. I can change waypoints or approaches instantly.  If only I could send the ForeFlight data to the 400W.  So I looked around and found the answer to my prayers!  (Even though I'm not even religious. )  Garmin has a little box called the Flight Stream 210 that enables precisely that.  It gives the 400W / 430W a bluetooth connection and the capability of synching with ForeFlight.  Installed price was well under 2 AMUs.  I couldn't resist.
It's the best of all possible worlds -- its bluetooth connection still sends all the position data and ADS/B traffic and weather data to the iPads (I switched off the GTX-345 bluetooth).  But now I can enter a flight plan or waypoints into ForeFlight, press the "send to panel" icon, and a message pops up on the 400W "accept flight plan data?"  I press "enter" on the 400W, and the flight plan is instantly loaded into the 400W.  It automatically synchs with the other iPad too!  If I want to add an approach, I can do that in seconds on the fly - pun intended - and transfer it to the 400W instantly.  No more twisting knobs!  If I want, I can enter changes on the 400W and they will synch back to the iPads too, but thus far the only thing I've found it makes sense to do in that direction is deleting waypoints to go direct.
To me, this is a far better setup than the 175 or even the big glass screens.  I have the simple, clean screen of the 400W and the super-fast, easy functionality of ForeFlight.  The Flight Stream 210 just breathed years of new life into my legacy Garmin WAAS GPS.   The one missing item (the big blank space in the photo) is for a GFC-500 autopilot if they ever certify it for the M20C!  (Garmin is obviously giving me time to save up for it.)

I think the best approach anyone can take with avionics is the one that works for them. I am asked often about why I went with the GTN 650 over the 750. For me, the GTN is a data entry device that has become even less so with the addition of the FlightStream 510. I load and make changes of flight plans on Garmin Pilot and upload them to the GTN.

What I use the GTN for is loading approaches, calculating descents and for a backup display for the traffic and StormScope outputs. Even that backup display is a triple redundancy with the L-3 9000 and Aspens in the panel.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[hammdo]

Have you tried this?

 

[Bob E]

Hammdo, that's exactly the setup process I used for the Flight Stream 210. 

Does that video involve the Flight Stream, or are there other Bluetooth interfaces that are TSO'd?  (If so, apparently I didn't check around enough!)

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Bob E said:

It's the best of all possible worlds -- its bluetooth connection still sends all the position data and ADS/B traffic and weather data to the iPads (I switched off the GTX-345 bluetooth).  But now I can enter a flight plan or waypoints into ForeFlight, press the "send to panel" icon, and a message pops up on the 400W "accept flight plan data?"  I press "enter" on the 400W, and the flight plan is instantly loaded into the 400W.  It automatically synchs with the other iPad too!  If I want to add an approach, I can do that in seconds on the fly - pun intended - and transfer it to the 400W instantly.  No more twisting knobs!  If I want, I can enter changes on the 400W and they will synch back to the iPads too, but thus far the only thing I've found it makes sense to do in that direction is deleting waypoints to go direct.

Why switch off the GTX-345 Bluetooth? My setup is different since I have the FS510 on the GTN, but I bluetooth connect to both the FS510 and GTX-345. The second connection to the 345 is a backup. In your case the only AHRS is in your 345, but I have 2 with the primary being my G500, but if that fails or even the FS fails, I am connected to the 345 to use that one. In your case it would back up a FS210 failure. Unlikely but still useful.

Its probably more personal preference as to whether you make all your flight plan changes on the 430 vs FF, but although I often used the IPad to make route changes where I had lots of time but always loaded and set up approaches from the Navigator. The Navigator is primary and what I am flying by and that point I really don't care if the iPad as the full approach routing - just seeing my position on the plate on my iPad is sufficient. But I am OCD about is making sure the loaded approach in the Navigator is exactly what I expect and I don't really have the time to reconcile it first on the iPad and then on the Navigator.

Personally as an instructor, I thought it was a mistake for FF to first, and then GP, add the full approach to the routing. Its only pro to me was in flight planning for time and fuel. But while flying the approach I thought it led to bad habits of the pilot over relying on the iPad for navigation rather than following the data from the Navigator; especially how to intercept final.  I see way too many pilots that got their IR before GPS try to fly by the magenta line  

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, hammdo said:

Have you tried this?

 

That’s with the FS210 the OP was talking about.  Without the fs210, the 430W doesn’t have BT.

[Ragsf15e]

29 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Why switch off the GTX-345 Bluetooth? My setup is different since I have the FS510 on the GTN, but I bluetooth connect to both the FS510 and GTX-345. The second connection to the 345 is a backup. In your case the only AHRS is in your 345, but I have 2 with the primary being my G500, but if that fails or even the FS fails, I am connected to the 345 to use that one. In your case it would back up a FS210 failure. Unlikely but still useful.

Its probably more personal preference as to whether you make all your flight plan changes on the 430 vs FF, but although I often used the IPad to make route changes where I had lots of time but always loaded and set up approaches from the Navigator. The Navigator is primary and what I am flying by and that point I really don't care if the iPad as the full approach routing - just seeing my position on the plate on my iPad is sufficient. But I am OCD about is making sure the loaded approach in the Navigator is exactly what I expect and I don't really have the time to reconcile it first on the iPad and then on the Navigator.

Personally as an instructor, I thought it was a mistake for FF to first, and then GP, add the full approach to the routing. Its only pro to me was in flight planning for time and fuel. But while flying the approach I thought it led to bad habits of the pilot over relying on the iPad for navigation rather than following the data from the Navigator; especially how to intercept final.  I see way too many pilots that got their IR before GPS try to fly by the magenta line  

I also think loading and reloading approaches on the 430 is the way to go.  You don’t have to dial in waypoints, just select approach and IAF.  Takes much less time than spelling out waypoints and makes damn sure the primary nav is loaded exactly how you want.  

Now enroute, yeah FF is much easier.

[jlunseth]

I dunno. I have a 430AW. It works pretty good. I can put a flight plan in fairly quickly. I am in the process of putting in a 210, but it probably is going to have limited value as far as entering flight plans is concerned.  Its not the flight plan that is set up in Foreflight (or GP) ahead of time that is a problem, because the pilot has all the time he/she wants to put that in to a 430 before calling for a clearance. The problem is when you get a clearance you were not expecting and then have to get that in. On the ground you have plenty of time, in the air with an extensive re-route that is different. I just don't find it all that difficult. Just put in the first wpt and go direct to that while you put everything else into a flight plan. The contrary issue is that when you are in the air and get that re-route in turbulence a keypad/touchpad is not much help. It's sometimes difficult to keep your finger on the screen period. At least with a knob you have something to hold onto. Nothing's perfect.

Approaches are easy on the 430, just select the approach and load or activate whichever you need. Then go direct to the IAF or if intercepting, direct - direct - enter to the endpoint of the leg you want to fly.

[Bob E]

Kortopates:   I switched off the BT on the 345 since I don't need it and I didn't want the iPads to accidentally log into the wrong BT connection.  Good idea to consider the 345 to be a backup, although my GPS antenna is now connected to the 400W, which shoots the info via Connext over to the 345, rather than vice versa (which is the way it was before the Flight Stream), so if the 400W goes down the BT on the 345 may not have anything to send..  My main backup, if the Garmin GPS does down, is a little Dual GPS 150 (non WAAS obviously) that's plugged into the power port.

Regarding over-reliance on the iPad, I don't think it's much of an issue.  A far greater issue is the distraction and time it takes to change an approach by twisting and selecting and pushing while trying to fly the airplane.  The iPad is barely distracting at all, and it leaves the GPS screen operational while entering the approach.  The iPad is required for me to be legal anyway since I haven't used paper charts for years.  (Have a couple for emergencies.)

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Bob E said:

Kortopates:   I switched off the BT on the 345 since I don't need it and I didn't want the iPads to accidentally log into the wrong BT connection.  Good idea to consider the 345 to be a backup, although my GPS antenna is now connected to the 400W, which shoots the info via Connext over to the 345, rather than vice versa (which is the way it was before the Flight Stream), so if the 400W goes down the BT on the 345 may not have anything to send..  My main backup, if the Garmin GPS does down, is a little Dual GPS 150 (non WAAS obviously) that's plugged into the power port.

Regarding over-reliance on the iPad, I don't think it's much of an issue.  A far greater issue is the distraction and time it takes to change an approach by twisting and selecting and pushing while trying to fly the airplane.  The iPad is barely distracting at all, and it leaves the GPS screen operational while entering the approach.  The iPad is required for me to be legal anyway since I haven't used paper charts for years.  (Have a couple for emergencies.)

Couple minor things just to make sure we’re on same page as I agree with Korpates... the 345 (i have one as well) has internal attitude sensors (ahrs).  It may or may not have internal gps (sounds like your setup the 345 is sharing gps from the 400w).  The gps for your ipad can be internal to the ipad if it’s a cellular enabled model (don’t need an actual cell plan though) or it can come through BT from any of your outside sources (fs210, gps150, or 345)  but Your ipad attitude data can only come from your -345 or your fs210.  That’s why he recommended you keep it as a backup.

You only have those two sources of attitude on the ipad and you have one turned off.

[Bob E]

Ragsf15e, I think you're right -- I'll ask the shop so I know for sure, but I presume the attitude info in my setup is coming from the 345, which also has an altitude encoder that ATC sees -- so those two items of info must be going from the 345 to the 400W via the canbus network connection.  Each G5 also has a static connection and has its own attitude sensor -- but I presume they aren't exporting any data.  Come to think of it, I can't even say for sure whether my ADS/B info is originating with the 345 or the 400W.   

My iPads don't have GPS; all continuous information flow regarding attitude, altitude, position, traffic, and weather is from the FS210 to them. 

Anyway, in my OP I was just sharing my happiness at not having to hassle with twisting and pushing anymore.   But now you've got me curious....

[carusoam]

Great pirep/entire thread, Bob E!

I was writing the other day about the twist enter twist enter twist enter of the older GPS(s)...

Nice to see a solution for some...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Bob E said:

Ragsf15e, I think you're right -- I'll ask the shop so I know for sure, but I presume the attitude info in my setup is coming from the 345, which also has an altitude encoder that ATC sees -- so those two items of info must be going from the 345 to the 400W via the canbus network connection.  Each G5 also has a static connection and has its own attitude sensor -- but I presume they aren't exporting any data.  Come to think of it, I can't even say for sure whether my ADS/B info is originating with the 345 or the 400W.   

My iPads don't have GPS; all continuous information flow regarding attitude, altitude, position, traffic, and weather is from the FS210 to them. 

Anyway, in my OP I was just sharing my happiness at not having to hassle with twisting and pushing anymore.   But now you've got me curious....

No problem. I have almost the exact same setup, 2 G5s, 430W, -345, and non gps iPad with FF.  You are right that the G5s both have attitude but don’t contribute to the ipad.  Both the FS210 and the -345 have an internal attitude source and feed it to your ipad.  Both also use the 400w position and feed that to your ipad.  Your G5s may be acting as your altitude encoder for the transponder (-345), but the -345 is transmitting and receiving all the ADSB info and making it available to your other connected devices.  If your 400w were to fail, you will lose position on the ipad unless connected to your-150 because the fs210 and -345 are just using the 400w for position data. 

You do have a great setup there.  I would love to spring for the FS210 as well but I fly in the NW where it’s not that busy and even my complex ifr flight plans only have a couple points.  Rerouting is unheard of. Enjoy!

[Lance Link]

My knowledge is way inadequate to say but the new Garmin Aera 760 may do most or all of this with a GDL 52R.  I’m looking into it.  I don’t like relying on the iPad for a number of reasons.

 

 

[tmo]

Don't the Avidyne IFD440 units have wireless as well? They are said to be a plug-in replacement for the GNS430W units.

[FlySafe]

6 hours ago, tmo said:

Don't the Avidyne IFD440 units have wireless as well? They are said to be a plug-in replacement for the GNS430W units.

Hi TMO, Yes they (IDF 440/540) do have wifi. It can act as a primary wifi connection point for interfacing with an ipad running the IFD100 app or be connected to a secondary network, e.g. Startus 3 . Swapped my 430w for the ifd440 awhile back while 430w still had $ value and I have been very happy with the upgrade. Not had any issues with G5 interface. There are some emerging functional issues between the IFD units and the GFC 500 autopilot dealing with VNAV and ESP and discussions on other threads related to STC legalities between the pairing.

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, tmo said:

Don't the Avidyne IFD440 units have wireless as well? They are said to be a plug-in replacement for the GNS430W units.

Yes the Avidyne's all have wifi and bluetooth built in and so sync'ing flight plans between the panel and iPad is just a couple of clicks. 

It was a surprise to me, but I just don't use it very often. creating a flight plane, or modifying a flight plan is so easy directly on the IFD, that I almost never build it in ForeFlight and then transfer it over.

[FlySafe]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yes the Avidyne's all have wifi and bluetooth built in and so sync'ing flight plans between the panel and iPad is just a couple of clicks. 

It was a surprise to me, but I just don't use it very often. creating a flight plane, or modifying a flight plan is so easy directly on the IFD, that I almost never build it in ForeFlight and then transfer it over.

I 2nd that! the IFD takes about 1 min or less to lay in a XC multi-waypoint plan with a SID, destination, approach, alternate airport and its approach. so easy on the IFD I have stop bothering to transfer over with foreflight prior to launch. However, I have used that feature a few times inflight with major reroutes, first sorted out new route on foreflight, once happy, upload to the IFD, activate.

[PTK]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:12 AM, Bob E said:

(Garmin is obviously giving me time to save up for it.)

Garmin gives us solutions. Lots of choices and solutions. And with Garmin you add value to your plane by making it more desirable should you decide to sell. Think long and hard and don’t make the mistake to go Avidyne or Aspen! The former has compatibility issues because they try to catchup, and the latter just couldn’t make it in GA. When upgrading your panel it’s best to stick with the same manufacturer. Garmin is the one and only.

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

Garmin gives us solutions. Lots of choices and solutions. And with Garmin you add value to your plane by making it more desirable should you decide to sell. Think long and hard and don’t make the mistake to go Avidyne or Aspen! The former has compatibility issues because they try to catchup, and the latter just couldn’t make it in GA. When upgrading your panel it’s best to stick with the same manufacturer. Garmin is the one and only.

Doing your best to drive up your Garmin stock, eh?

[Bob E]

On 8/23/2020 at 6:42 PM, PTK said:

Garmin gives us solutions. Lots of choices and solutions. And with Garmin you add value to your plane by making it more desirable should you decide to sell. Think long and hard and don’t make the mistake to go Avidyne or Aspen! The former has compatibility issues because they try to catchup, and the latter just couldn’t make it in GA. When upgrading your panel it’s best to stick with the same manufacturer. Garmin is the one and only.

Since my M20C is a forever plane (I've owned it for 34 years and now my son, age 23, now has the keys to it too), resale value wasn't a factor in choosing Garmin.  When I upgraded my panel the criteria I used were basically as follows:

• Simple, functional layout.  All buttons and controls easy to access and use with minimal distractions.  (It took a long time to find the right clock and digital timer.) Simple and clear navigation visuals with no clutter. I decided not to go with a large panel-mounted glass display, so I use the GPS screen for navigation only, and use the iPad to display charts, traffic, weather, and plates.
• Avoiding single points of failure.  Engine monitor functions, radios, GPS navigation, and legacy navigation are all separate systems.  Also, each G5 has its own separate altitude readout and its own attitude indicator and battery backup. 
• "Bulletproof" quality.  That's the reason I kept the KX-155 radios, which despite being at least 25 years old, have LED upgrades and will likely be functional for another 10 years or more.  It's also the reason I chose Garmin.  I know Aspen had some issues a few years ago. (Plus I never did much like the Aspen vertical display in the middle of a panel, but that's subjective.)
• Compatibility.   Some non-Garmin units are compatible, but I never saw much of an advantage to using them.  I do use ForeFlight rather than Garmin Pilot.
• Aesthetics.  I experimented with Photoshop to see what different panel layouts looked like. That helped a lot.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Bob E