TheLachlan Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Just wrapping up selling N642DG. May get another plane soon, may wait a little, next few weeks should be telling in that department. You know how it is though, window shopping and hours of research has commenced already. We bought the plane for just under $70k but after about $60k added in with a new engine etc etc it was stretching the current budget.. I've really been looking at an experimental, I'd love to be able to do much of the work myself and not be as limited as the certified are. The main mission would be work, hence the next few weeks being telling on whether I could greatly benefit from a plane or not. This thought process/conversation is assuming I'll be able to. Mission: VFR trips across TX, Midland area, Dallas area, Houston area, and possibly expanding to the Denver and Colorado Springs areas. I'm a new pilot, about 75hrs in a F model, that is total hours. Paid around $4,000 annually for insurance on the F, first year hull value was 70ish, last renewal it got upped to 91ish. Budget, want to be under $50k. Options I'm considering/researching. RV6/A: Nice planes, good on speed and efficiency, the A model would most likely be just a simple checkout with a CFI so minimal time/money for the transition. It seems kind of rare to find a nice one under $50k though based on my limited searching so far, correct me if I'm wrong. I have a friend who has over 5,000hrs, over 300 in a Mooney, fly's a King Air for a company and he says, and I quote "I've flown over 150 different types of aircraft and the Vans RV is my favorite" Thorp T18: Nice planes, hear they are tight in the cockpit, excellent speed and efficiency, tail wheel only so insurance would be higher, and more time/money for transition. Very nice examples can seem to be found for under $30k which seems like a steal for what the numbers are on this plane, also based on current for sale ads they are not hard to hard to find either. For my budget and speed needs/wants these 2 seem to be some of the only ones that fit the mold or are fairly easy to find good examples of, in the experimental category. Then I started looking at C's and E's... Pro's: Familiar platform, very little transition time/money, 4 seats so I can take the WHOLE family up too( wife and small kids ), can keep doing business with the bank we have been using as I'm not sure they will do experimental aircraft, they are supposed to get back to me on if they will do experimental. Con's: Certified, cant do much of the maintenance by myself, cant do modifications as cheaply or in some cases not myself either, not as fast as the others listed, still decent though, higher maintenance/upkeep costs. So, I'd like opinions on whats listed, also if I've missed a great candidate plane. Also, how much different is it flying a carbed plane like the C vs fuel injected, how easy it is getting carb ice? How much higher should E's be priced vs C's? Are nice top rung E's and C's easy to find under $50k? Seems so from what I've seen but I'd like members opinions on that, and all this.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Are you an AP/IA? Home built would still require an AP/IA sign off or the original owner (who built the plane) would need to do it for annuals. You’d be better as far as equipment options (home built) - not sure if you as the owner (not builder) could still install/wire things up. EAA would help there. top E’s and Cs won’t be under $50k — Bob Belville’s sold for $110k - and it was really a top of the line plane.. -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, hammdo said: Are you an AP/IA? Home built would still require an AP/IA sign off or the original owner (who built the plane) would need to do it for annuals. You’d be better as far as equipment options (home built) - not sure if you as the owner (not builder) could still install/wire things up. EAA would help there. top E’s and Cs won’t be under $50k — Bob Belville’s sold for $110k - and it was really a top of the line plane.. -Don Perhaps I should have clarified. Top of the line mechanically, as in low to mid time engine/prop and everything else well kept up. I like glass and fancy avionics but really the main thing Id like for VFR is a simple autopilot and a 396 or a well hooked up Ipad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Ah.. that makes more sense ;o) My B was like that (380 prop factory overhaul) low time (3800 hrs) VFR and good radios/ABS-B. new windshield, PC wing leveler... may find something similar for under $50k — mine - with updates I added - was $40k They’re out there but sell very fast... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Do you intend to drive your plane to work often? Or only on sunny days when the energy is right? There are good ways to include a plane into your work environment, and some not so good ways to include your plane with work... My Boss had a home built that was an awesome piece of mechanical art... Never seen at work.... not often discussed. My M20C was barely presentable, but many work mates came along for a ride... The M20R was fully IFR compliant, completely presentable, customers and work mates enjoyed it... My favorite aspect of having a plane that I could use for work... Customers would ask how soon I could see them... How about later today? Or tomorrow? Not next week or the week after... (your competition is going to hate you more when you stop by the customer to drop off your latest drawings, presentation, and bag full of samples...) Having the IR is one of the coolest options you can get for your money... More of a software option than a hardware one... I had a few customers that flew Mooneys to support their business... or started with a Mooney on their way to faster machines... If you can see how you may use your plane in the next few years... it is amazing how things come together in the end... +1 for a four seat, factory built, aircraft that is fast and efficient, with all the IFR equipment to make it safe to fly in lots of weather... PP thoughts only... i was living in Dallas when I started flying... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 If you look hard, I think you'll find there is not a statistically significant difference in the ongoing operating costs of an M20C, E, F, or J. All of these are certified, 4-place, IFR-capable, aluminum-skinned, normally aspirated, 4-cylinder Lycoming, complex aircraft, with constant speed props and retractable landing gear. There are minor differences in speed and useful load, and there will be a difference in the purchase price (more due to age than model). But that's not what drives your budget over the years. If you were struggling to maintain an M20F, I think you'll similarly struggle with a C or E. Operating budget for a 2-place experimental RV-6 or Thorp with fixed gear and fixed pitch prop is likely to have less expensive OpEx costs. If budget is really the driver, I'd go that route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 16 minutes ago, carusoam said: Do you intend to drive your plane to work often? Or only on sunny days when the energy is right? There are good ways to include a plane into your work environment, and some not so good ways to include your plane with work... My Boss had a home built that was an awesome piece of mechanical art... Never seen at work.... not often discussed. My M20C was barely presentable, but many work mates came along for a ride... The M20R was fully IFR compliant, completely presentable, customers and work mates enjoyed it... My favorite aspect of having a plane that I could use for work... Customers would ask how soon I could see them... How about later today? Or tomorrow? Not next week or the week after... (your competition is going to hate you more when you stop by the customer to drop off your latest drawings, presentation, and bag full of samples...) Having the IR is one of the coolest options you can get for your money... More of a software option than a hardware one... I had a few customers that flew Mooneys to support their business... or started with a Mooney on their way to faster machines... If you can see how you may use your plane in the next few years... it is amazing how things come together in the end... +1 for a four seat, factory built, aircraft that is fast and efficient, with all the IFR equipment to make it safe to fly in lots of weather... PP thoughts only... i was living in Dallas when I started flying... Best regards, -a- Well I am considering getting into the more residential side of construction and having multiple job sites in multiple areas. So it would be to meet clients, go for meetings, check up on job sites etc etc. As far as VFR goes, if there is bad weather, chances are there wont be much work going on to check up on anyway and worse case I can just drive. Really like what you said here, would love to be able to utilize as a competitive tool for the company as well. My favorite aspect of having a plane that I could use for work... Customers would ask how soon I could see them... How about later today? Or tomorrow? Not next week or the week after... (your competition is going to hate you more when you stop by the customer to drop off your latest drawings, presentation, and bag full of samples...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 What is insurance on a 50K hull value Mooney vs an experimental? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, Vance Harral said: If you look hard, I think you'll find there is not a statistically significant difference in the ongoing operating costs of an M20C, E, F, or J. All of these are certified, 4-place, IFR-capable, aluminum-skinned, normally aspirated, 4-cylinder Lycoming, complex aircraft, with constant speed props and retractable landing gear. There are minor differences in speed and useful load, and there will be a difference in the purchase price (more due to age than model). But that's not what drives your budget over the years. If you were struggling to maintain an M20F, I think you'll similarly struggle with a C or E. Operating budget for a 2-place experimental RV-6 or Thorp with fixed gear and fixed pitch prop is likely to have less expensive OpEx costs. If budget is really the driver, I'd go that route. Lets put it this way, I would plan on financing. After the rebuild the F between, payment, insurance, low cost annual, and low cost hangar would be costing me just under $20,000 a year to just own, never mind operating it. If I could find a suitable plane like a T18 for say in the $30k range then that number should drop approximately $7k-8K which buys a lot of fuel and upkeep for regular operations, for an experimental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, rbridges said: What is insurance on a 50K hull value Mooney vs an experimental? I talked to Falcon today. She figured a RV6A would be about what I paid for the Mooney. If I went tail wheel then I'd have to probably pay more than the Mooney because I dont have any tail wheel time, and she said experimental was usually higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 If being old And eccentric looking helps sell your product... go experimental... If looking smart and outgoing helps sell stuff... take a look at what Bob’s M20E had for character... His 60s Mooney looked like it could have been made yesterday... Customers would see it in a completely modern light... When parked next to a brand new Mooney Ultra, they looked like modern planes built in the same factory. One was just larger than the other... Experimental, of the ordinary variety, has too many quirks to get past... Building relationships with customers... they are going to see your plane...or think you are hiding it from them... the last thing you want to talk about is why it says experimental in big letters on the door.... and have it looking really like an experiment you created, instead of working on their project.... I loved working with customers... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 hour ago, TheLachlan said: I talked to Falcon today. She figured a RV6A would be about what I paid for the Mooney. If I went tail wheel then I'd have to probably pay more than the Mooney because I dont have any tail wheel time, and she said experimental was usually higher. No kidding. I always thought experimental carried higher rates. Makes the decision tougher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Mooney values are going up. $50K wouldn't buy any C or E I'd want to own today. $60K would buy the C but it would take $75K to buy the E. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 The best plane to own is the one you know. I’d really hate for you to buy a C or E and drop another 30k to bring it up to speed / have another early engine failure. Honestly I thought the F you sold would have been a great base for a forever plane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, rbridges said: No kidding. I always thought experimental carried higher rates. Makes the decision tougher. They are higher, the RV6A is a tricycle gear hence it being lower most likely, a RV6 without the A in tow is a tail dragged and would be higher sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: Mooney values are going up. $50K wouldn't buy any C or E I'd want to own today. $60K would buy the C but it would take $75K to buy the E. That’s what’s I’m scared of, another nightmare with expensive parts, specially when trying to shop within a lower budget. The pre buy uncovered stuff my shop missed that did the rebuild , more surprises. If it where experimental I’d gladly tackle it myself most of it and the parts wouldn’t have a 1000% markup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, MIm20c said: The best plane to own is the one you know. I’d really hate for you to buy a C or E and drop another 30k to bring it up to speed / have another early engine failure. Honestly I thought the F you sold would have been a great base for a forever plane... From the time I posted the plane for sale to after we had dropped it off for the pre buy some things had changed already to where I would have been totally cool had the sale not gone through, had hangar options going and all. But it’s okay cause that was stretching my budget, and if I can’t get something nice in my range then it will just have to wait, I don’t want to “reach” for something that I’ll regret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Rocketman Posted August 19, 2020 Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 5 hours ago, hammdo said: Are you an AP/IA? Home built would still require an AP/IA sign off or the original owner (who built the plane) would need to do it for annuals. You’d be better as far as equipment options (home built) - not sure if you as the owner (not builder) could still install/wire things up. EAA would help there. Any buyer of a homebuilt/ EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft can perform maintenance on the plane, irregardless if they built it or bought it completed and flying. The only thing they can't do without a "Repairman's License" (which only a legitimate builder can get) is the Condition Inspection. EAB's don't need annuals. The yearly condition inspection (pretty much the same thing) can be signed off by an A&P. No IA requirement if you don't have the repairman's license. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 19, 2020 Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 29 minutes ago, TheLachlan said: That’s what’s I’m scared of, another nightmare with expensive parts, specially when trying to shop within a lower budget. The pre buy uncovered stuff my shop missed that did the rebuild , more surprises. If it where experimental I’d gladly tackle it myself most of it and the parts wouldn’t have a 1000% markup. I've posted this before... and it still holds true... Airplane ownership, not for the faint of heart or light of wallet. 1 AMU - waking around money (hip pocket) 10% of purchase price for first annual (checking) 10 AMU - emergency maintenance fund (savings) Be able to access the cost of an engine anytime from day 1 forward. (Credit card, home equity, Uncle Vinny, etc) And in the worst case, walk away from the entire thing without suffering financial ruin. (discovery of a corroded spar, as an example) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said: Any buyer of a homebuilt/ EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft can perform maintenance on the plane, irregardless if they built it or bought it completed and flying. The only thing they can't do without a "Repairman's License" (which only a legitimate builder can get) is the Condition Inspection. EAB's don't need annuals. The yearly condition inspection (pretty much the same thing) can be signed off by an A&P. No IA requirement if you don't have the repairman's license. Tom This is such a big pro for me on the experimental side of things. Also that friend I mentioned, I think he is an A&P and also has a RV6 and a T18 in his hangar, I want to make it to his side of TX soon to check them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: I've posted this before... and it still holds true... Airplane ownership, not for the faint of heart or light of wallet. 1 AMU - waking around money (hip pocket) 10% of purchase price for first annual (checking) 10 AMU - emergency maintenance fund (savings) Be able to access the cost of an engine anytime from day 1 forward. (Credit card, home equity, Uncle Vinny, etc) And in the worst case, walk away from the entire thing without suffering financial ruin. (discovery of a corroded spar, as an example) This isn’t a bad rule to follow I’d say, don’t think it spells disaster if one would adjust some of those numbers slightly but definitely not a bad rule. 10% of purchase price though for the first annual? Even if you get a bang up PPI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoeschen Posted August 19, 2020 Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 What is insurance on a 50K hull value Mooney vs an experimental? My RV-9A Insurance $100k hull was almost half the cost of my M20C insurance $50k hull. $1000per year vs. $1800. That was a few years ago. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted August 19, 2020 Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, TheLachlan said: This isn’t a bad rule to follow I’d say, don’t think it spells disaster if one would adjust some of those numbers slightly but definitely not a bad rule. 10% of purchase price though for the first annual? Even if you get a bang up PPI? YUUP. Sorry, but I don't think there's such an animal as a flawless/'bang up' PPI. You are just NOT paying for that number of hours. And, a PPI isn't quite the same list as an annual; nor is it intended to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted August 19, 2020 Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: I've posted this before... and it still holds true... Airplane ownership, not for the faint of heart or light of wallet. 1 AMU - waking around money (hip pocket) 10% of purchase price for first annual (checking) 10 AMU - emergency maintenance fund (savings) Be able to access the cost of an engine anytime from day 1 forward. (Credit card, home equity, Uncle Vinny, etc) And in the worst case, walk away from the entire thing without suffering financial ruin. (discovery of a corroded spar, as an example) Truer words have never been written. Those are the EXACT reasons I waited until the kids were through college and the house paid off before I bought my own plane. If the plane will sit because it needs to wait for the owner to get an AMU or two scraped up before a repair then, IMHO, ownership should not be in the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLachlan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, MikeOH said: If the plane will sit because it needs to wait for the owner to get an AMU or two scraped up before a repair then, IMHO, ownership should not be in the cards. Yeah that could be pretty stressful living that far on the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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