Jump to content

Which model Mooney should I buy?


golfmogul

Recommended Posts

In rereading the OP, I think a long body is the only way.  Need the extra baggage room for the dog carrier.  Could be done in a pinch in a mid body but it's not the right tool for the job.
Or do what I did, and get the dog to fit the Mooney!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/7/2020 at 10:20 PM, carusoam said:

Fast planes are unlike golf in one respect... a bad day of golf doesn’t usually lead to falling very far... :)

This reminded me of a joke I heard a few years ago...  

What does Golf and sky diving have in common?

In golf, you hear, “Whack, dammit!”

In sky diving you hear, “Dammit, whack!”

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tp OP

There are a lot of 231's available right now for some reason.  They would fit your bill pretty nicely if you don't have to have the dog in a kennel.

That being said....It is a lot of aircraft for your experience level.  Any turbocharged aircraft will be.  Keep in mind, if you go with a turbo aircraft you are stepping into something much much more complex that it appears at first glance.  Not only will you be dealing with the constant speed prop, retractable gear, speed brakes (possibly), autopilot usage (an art its self)... but you now have an aircraft that will go high enough that you need Oxygen and will put you in the icing levels quite often.  You  will HAVE to run the heater and so you SHOULD get a CO detector and monitor that as well.  And you have to manage all of that while dealing with passengers and making sure they too are getting oxygen, all while potentially in IMC conditions flying on instruments and talking to ATC.

Being a new pilot, I am sure you know what it feels like to have too many "balls in the air".  As you did your training, you no doubt experienced times where there were a lot of things going on that resulted in mistakes or less than ideal situations.  It took time/experience to build your skills up to the point of being able to handle the load.  Getting in a turbo moonie will be no different.  Point being, you should be very methodical and conservative in how fast you hop into one with family and head off.  Get loads of training in it and do a few XC trips solo first.

 I tell people that I am more task saturated in my Rocket than I am when I fly a G650 and I am not kidding.  The 231 has less power than the Rocket, but all of the elements that make the rocket "busy" are still there in the 231.  I'm not the best pilot on the planet, but I am a professional pilot with about 5000 hours worth of experience and I can tell you, a turbo mooney will keep you busy and get you into trouble pretty fast. 

I am not trying to discourage you.  I think it is great that you are getting your tickets and you plan to be a part of GA.  I just get the feeling that you don't really know what you will be stepping into and I wanted to give you a better Idea.  The trouble is it sounds like you will be flying at high DA airports... this sort of puts you in a catch 22 as far as NA vs Turbo goes.  If you were flying out of Florida, Id be recommending a Normally aspirated  model.  But operating at higher field elevations and in mountains  can be demanding as well, though in a different respect.

 

Have you factored in insurance into your budget?  I recommend that you call and get a quote for what it will cost to insure you.  I don't know what it will cost, but I bet it will be a bit steep if you buy one while having less than 100 hours Total time.  Maybe someone else will be able to chime in on that.  FWIW, I pay about 2400 a year for the rocket with an ATP rating and 5000 hours.

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2020 at 12:42 PM, carusoam said:

To find out how much training is required by your insurance company.... give them a call...

If you don’t have an insurance company yet...  we have Parker...

 

My first M20C required 10hrs dual, and 10hrs solo before I could take passengers...

So... if you get sentenced with lots of hours of training required...  
 

Spend it on something good... decent Transition Training with a qualified Mooney instructor is worth extra money...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Who is Parker?  Contact info plz?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2020 at 1:29 PM, Niko182 said:

Realistically, your options consist of a screaming eagle, or an encore. Which one you choose doesnt really matter, theyll offer about the same performance on about the same fuel flow in the teens. Your main problem is useful load. Most clean encores and eagles will have at least an 1100lbs useful load. With that, you can carry your entire family, but its slightly tight. The dog will make it an issue. I absolutely love my eagle, especially with its 1217lbs useful load, but im always thinking an a36 with the atlantic aero io550r conversion would probably be a better fit. And im going to recommend you pass on the mooney, and get a toga, a 210, or a 36.

I adore my mooney, but i realized after moving away from rentals, i fill up the plane with either people or bikes, or luggage, and evertime I fly somewhere, the plane is filled to the brim. In the end, i think id gladly give up 5 to 8 knots on the same fuel flow, for the ability to have some barn doors and carry  a 1500lbs of useful load or more. If you have a dog and kids, those barn doors will be magical for you. 

What's a toga?  I googled it and didn't find what you are referring to.  For 36 you mean bonanza 36?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, golfmogul said:

What's a toga?  I googled it and didn't find what you are referring to.  For 36 you mean bonanza 36?

Saratoga; Cessna 210; Bonanza A36 / G36. 

Don't know about the first; read enough Richard Collins to avoid P210s; A36 is nice, fast and pricey; G36 is a newer A36 . . . .

My A36 experience is climb at 140 knots, 1000 fpm, cruise at ~13 gph, 165 KTAS. Or 14% cruise speed increase, 44% more fuel than my lowly C. And a faster climb. Still need to watch CG, even with the big barn doors, couldn't take 4 adults all facing forward, I had to ride in the club seat facing backwards but with much legroom. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2020 at 3:54 PM, carusoam said:

I’m a big fan of flying a full grown family of four around with a 30pound dog....

In an Ovation...

if I had to get a Brand B because my dog was overweight...

I’d kick myself for getting Brand B advice from MS...:)

 

As much as it may seem to be valuable, it loses its credibility...

 

Ovations perfect for a family of four with or without a dog...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

Lol - somehow, the comments continue to address a family of 4 + a dog.  I'd def be looking at a 6 seater if that was the case, but we're a family of 3 plus a dog.   When clothed, I'm 180, kid a is 160 now & soon 180 I assume, kid B is 120 & tall so will keep growing.  Dog will NOT come on many of our trips, but will come on some, and now weighs 25 and growing very fast.  This is a 2-3 year plane for me - plan to sell this plane then & move up as my skills/experience grow, and as my ability to afford a nicer plane grows.   So, even if my 10 year old (kid b) grows super fast, I doubt we'll ever be 3x180 ppl in this plane - and if we were, we just wouldn't take our dog on those trips if UL isn't enough for the gas needed to go 2 or 3 hours to 1st stop.  Also, if I was just going to buy one plane only at this time, I'd spend about $200k, but instead, I plan to order & begin building an RV-7 asap (begin asap ... will take yrs to build I assume, unless I get impatient after the empennage kit and do the rest with a quick-build-assist program) ... so I have to use about $135k now & save the rest for the hard costs for the quick build kit & engine etc that will hit in about 8 months from now on my RV build.  Thx a ton all for the advice.  For those who've been recommending an a36, now that you know I'm 3 (mostly) adult sized ppl + a sometimes dog instead of 4 adult pax + always dog, ... would you recommend an F or J or (maybe) a K instead of the a36?  Thx

 

Edit: spelling

Edited by golfmogul
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2020 at 6:09 PM, Shadrach said:

In rereading the OP, I think a long body is the only way.  Need the extra baggage room for the dog carrier.  Could be done in a pinch in a mid body but it's not the right tool for the job.

Thx - so, are the F and J and K models long body?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, golfmogul said:

Lol - somehow, the commends continue to address a family of 4 + a dog.  I'd def be looking at a 6 seater if that was the case, but we're a family of 3 plus a dog.   When clothed, I'm 180, kid a is 160 now & soon 180 I assume, kid B is 120 & tall so will keep growing.  Dog will NOT come on many of our trips, but will come on some, and now weighs 25 and growing very fast.  This is a 2-3 year plane for me - plan to sell this plane then & move up as my skills/experience grow, and as my ability to afford a nicer plane grows.   So, even if my 10 year old (kid b) grows super fast, I doubt we'll ever be 3x180 ppl in this plane - and if we were, we just wouldn't take our dog on those trips if UL isn't enough for the gas needed to go 2 or 3 hours to 1st stop.  Also, if I was just going to buy one plane only at this time, I'd spend about $200k, but instead, I plan to order & begin building an RV-7 asap (begin asap ... will take yrs to build I assume, unless I get impatient after the empennage kit and do the rest with a quick-build-assist program) ... so I have to use about $135k now & save the rest for the hard costs for the quick build kit & engine etc that will hit in about 8 months from now on my RV build.  Thx a ton all for the advice.  For those who've been recommending an a36, now that you know I'm 3 (mostly) adult sized ppl + a sometimes dog instead of 4 adult pax + always dog, ... would you recommend an F or J or (maybe) a K instead of the a36?  Thx

Apparently I’m not very good at addition...

For WnB, I use an app for that...

Go M20J... gets lots of experience...

Your answers come with time... flying the way you fly... to places you like to fly to...

F & J are Mid...  J is the newer version...

Long Body comes with bigger engine, faster speeds, higher fuel burn, more responsibility...

K and M are turbo... See Austin’s advice above... 

No need to rush to go faster and higher... unless you want to take on huge amounts of training to match the responsibility...  :)

Go Mooney!

-a-

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Tp OP

There are a lot of 231's available right now for some reason.  They would fit your bill pretty nicely if you don't have to have the dog in a kennel.

That being said....It is a lot of aircraft for your experience level.  Any turbocharged aircraft will be.  Keep in mind, if you go with a turbo aircraft you are stepping into something much much more complex that it appears at first glance.  Not only will you be dealing with the constant speed prop, retractable gear, speed brakes (possibly), autopilot usage (an art its self)... but you now have an aircraft that will go high enough that you need Oxygen and will put you in the icing levels quite often.  You  will HAVE to run the heater and so you SHOULD get a CO detector and monitor that as well.  And you have to manage all of that while dealing with passengers and making sure they too are getting oxygen, all while potentially in IMC conditions flying on instruments and talking to ATC.

Being a new pilot, I am sure you know what it feels like to have too many "balls in the air".  As you did your training, you no doubt experienced times where there were a lot of things going on that resulted in mistakes or less than ideal situations.  It took time/experience to build your skills up to the point of being able to handle the load.  Getting in a turbo moonie will be no different.  Point being, you should be very methodical and conservative in how fast you hop into one with family and head off.  Get loads of training in it and do a few XC trips solo first.

 I tell people that I am more task saturated in my Rocket than I am when I fly a G650 and I am not kidding.  The 231 has less power than the Rocket, but all of the elements that make the rocket "busy" are still there in the 231.  I'm not the best pilot on the planet, but I am a professional pilot with about 5000 hours worth of experience and I can tell you, a turbo mooney will keep you busy and get you into trouble pretty fast. 

I am not trying to discourage you.  I think it is great that you are getting your tickets and you plan to be a part of GA.  I just get the feeling that you don't really know what you will be stepping into and I wanted to give you a better Idea.  The trouble is it sounds like you will be flying at high DA airports... this sort of puts you in a catch 22 as far as NA vs Turbo goes.  If you were flying out of Florida, Id be recommending a Normally aspirated  model.  But operating at higher field elevations and in mountains  can be demanding as well, though in a different respect.

 

Have you factored in insurance into your budget?  I recommend that you call and get a quote for what it will cost to insure you.  I don't know what it will cost, but I bet it will be a bit steep if you buy one while having less than 100 hours Total time.  Maybe someone else will be able to chime in on that.  FWIW, I pay about 2400 a year for the rocket with an ATP rating and 5000 hours.

 

 

 

THANKS!  This is very well said - and more detail but similar to what I've read about the K model ..... I def know what you mean about too many balls in the air & stuff coming at me too fast as a new student pilot, which is why for a while I refused to look at Mooney's or anything retract.  Anyway, your comments here have convinced me to remove all K's out of my favs in Controller and Trade a plane - having turbo & all the related stuff to add to the newness of retract & constant speed prop is too much for me for now.    Thx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, golfmogul said:

THANKS!  This is very well said - and more detail but similar to what I've read about the K model ..... I def know what you mean about too many balls in the air & stuff coming at me too fast as a new student pilot, which is why for a while I refused to look at Mooney's or anything retract.  Anyway, your comments here have convinced me to remove all K's out of my favs in Controller and Trade a plane - having turbo & all the related stuff to add to the newness of retract & constant speed prop is too much for me for now.    Thx

You are welcome.

I have a few more pennies for you.  You might consider looking around for a turbo normalized mooney or getting one that you can put a turbo normalizer on.  The reason I say this is because the waste gate is manually controlled, which means you can LEAVE IT ALONE for a while and fly it as a normally aspirated aircraft at NA altitudes and speeds.  Then once you feel you have a good grip on the animal, you can start learning about how to use the Turbo normalizer.  If you bought say a J model without the normalizer, you could put it on later when you feel you want more speed and can handle the workload.  You could sort of "grow" into the aircraft. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote post="604960" timestamp="1597022713" name="golfmogul" ..... Also, if I was just going to buy one plane only at this time, I'd spend about $200k, but instead, I plan to order & begin building an RV-7 asap (begin asap ... will take yrs to build I assume, unless I get impatient after the empennage kit and do the rest with a quick-build-assist program) ... so I have to use about $135k now & save the rest for the hard costs for the quick build kit & engine etc that will hit in about 8 months from now on my RV build. .....


Now that you mention building an RV, I'd think buying a Mooney is a bad idea. If you're hands on enough to build a plane you'll want to participate in maintenance of the Mooney. You'll find the flying the Mooney and maintaining it won't leave you the time to build. Or, you'll be so busy with your limited free time building you won't have time to fly the Mooney - certainly not enough to make ownership worthwhile. Renting seems like a better use of your time while building.
I have known many builders, very few have the time to fly another plane much when they're building and have work and family commitments. Most say they're fine giving up flying because they want to fly their project soonest - which is still often many years. The single guys pull it off the fastest.

Secondly, if you were to buy and own a high performance Mooney that you can fly the family in, where is the incentive to finish building a 2-seater RV that leaves the family out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Austintatious said:

 I tell people that I am more task saturated in my Rocket than I am when I fly a G650 and I am not kidding.  The 231 has less power than the Rocket, but all of the elements that make the rocket "busy" are still there in the 231.  I'm not the best pilot on the planet, but I am a professional pilot with about 5000 hours worth of experience and I can tell you, a turbo mooney will keep you busy and get you into trouble pretty fast. 

No kidding - I found that remark very interesting.  Having flown a rocket for 10+ years but never a G650, it sort of surprised me since knee jerk I would assumed a jet would be more of a saturation handful.  (Of course saturation means head full).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

No kidding - I found that remark very interesting.  Having flown a rocket for 10+ years but never a G650, it sort of surprised me since knee jerk I would assumed a jet would be more of a saturation handful.  (Of course saturation means head full).

The Engines are FADEC with auto throttle and can be yanked to IDLE at any time without potential damage.  Pressurization is 100% automated and maintains a 4500 foot cabin at FL510.  There is another pilot.  The flight plan can be manipulated with a cursor on any of the 4  14 inch LCD screens.  The is an altitude pre-selector and a VNAV function for climb and descent.  We have a Synthetic vision system, a Forward looking IR camera that can put the image on a HUD.  Also in the hud there is a flair Q which guides you through a pretty nice landing after which the auto-brakes will get you stopped.    We have a flight attendant taking care of the passengers.

Dont get me wrong, someone new to the 650 will be completely task saturated, but it will be because they are unfamiliar with the automation.  Once you know it, everything is really easy.   However, even after getting to know the Rocket... The workload is manageable but higher than in the 650.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

The Engines are FADEC with auto throttle and can be yanked to IDLE at any time without potential damage.  Pressurization is 100% automated and maintains a 4500 foot cabin at FL510.  There is another pilot.  The flight plan can be manipulated with a cursor on any of the 4  14 inch LCD screens.  The is an altitude pre-selector and a VNAV function for climb and descent.  We have a Synthetic vision system, a Forward looking IR camera that can put the image on a HUD.  Also in the hud there is a flair Q which guides you through a pretty nice landing after which the auto-brakes will get you stopped.    We have a flight attendant taking care of the passengers.

Dont get me wrong, someone new to the 650 will be completely task saturated, but it will be because they are unfamiliar with the automation.  Once you know it, everything is really easy.   However, even after getting to know the Rocket... The workload is manageable but higher than in the 650.

This is very interesting - thanks!

So maybe I should get a 650?

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A 4 seater is really a 2 seater, and a 6 seater is really a 4 seater.  There is absolutely no point in having a nice fast plane that needs to stop every 3 hours.  Give me the slowest plane that can do 5 hours to empty...

And on the west coast you need to get your head around flying at 12,000 feet most of the time, mountain's, wind, turbulence, temperature, IFR routes etc.  So you need to get to that altitude reasonably quickly - so either turbocharged, or lightly loaded normally aspirated 6 seater.

For a 100 hour pilot I would recommend a really nice Cherokee 6 or fixed gear Saratoga.  Your passengers will love the cabin space and rear doors.  They probably won't know the difference between a fixed gear and retractible version.

Make it a 3 to 5 year plan.  Fly the crap out of it, get ratings, cross country experience etc.  Learn the pro's and con's of aircraft ownership.  Then trade up to your midlife plane.  Finally get your 'forever' plane.

I've owned a Seneca for 30 years now, in the process of trading down to a 252 with long range tanks.  Could be persuaded on an early Mailbu too.  (now there's a 6 seater that's really a 2 seater).

Aerodon

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Aerodon said:

A 4 seater is really a 2 seater, and a 6 seater is really a 4 seater.  There is absolutely no point in having a nice fast plane that needs to stop every 3 hours.  Give me the slowest plane that can do 5 hours to empty...

 

Aerodon

 

 

Ehh, gonna respectfully disagree... First off... even a fuel sucking rocket with stock tanks can go 3.5 hours at 200 knots.  That's 700 NM.

a 5 hour plane at 150 knots gets you 50 miles further.  That is if you don't pull the Rocket back a little.  Things get a bit more interesting on a round trip with headwinds.  Imagine a 30 knot wind in your face.  Now the slow bird is doing 120 knots... for 5 hours that equates to roughly 600 miles.  The rocket would be doing 170 knots for 3.5 hours.  That's 595 miles.... so Basically the same range only you save 1.5 hours.

 

of course there are a bunch of different aircraft and different capabilities... I personally don't mind stopping for cheap gas and leg stretch if I need to go further than 1 tank.

That being said, I think you gave good advice on aircraft options!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

This is very interesting - thanks!

So maybe I should get a 650?

So long as you dont want to go anywhere with less than 4500 feet and you can afford the operating cost... ABSOLUTELY!  IT is a true time machine... 530 knots true...  I've seen almost 700 over the ground in a strong tailwind.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.