Matt Lindeman Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 MS, First time plane buyer here. My quest for a gem continues...however, once I find her, what is the easiest way to quickly identify the most qualified shop or individual near the aircraft location to conduct the pre buy inspection? Should I just use MS and say “I’m interested in a plane at XXX airport, who’s the best nearby?” Or should I have a shop in mind for general geographic regions around the country? Is there a directory at hand of the most qualified shops/inspectors around the country? Should I place a deposit before a pre-buy to ensure someone doesn’t scoop it up from underneath me? What’s your experience with getting a deposit returned if the aircraft isn’t up to snuff after inspection? Thanks! Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 A lot of questions...let me fire the first shot...others will be along shortly. 39 minutes ago, Matt Lindeman said: First time plane buyer here. My quest for a gem continues... What model are you seeking? What is your flying background and overall mission? 39 minutes ago, Matt Lindeman said: what is the easiest way to quickly identify the most qualified shop or individual near the aircraft location to conduct the pre buy inspection? Should I just use MS and say “I’m interested in a plane at XXX airport, who’s the best nearby?” Or should I have a shop in mind for general geographic regions around the country? You should pick someone highly-qualified that has a proven track record of working on Mooneys that is completely detached from the airplane in question. Your best bet is to get an unbiased opinion of the airplane. Treat the PPI as an annual. Your PPI mechanic should plan to spend at least a couple of days going through the airplane. Anyone who gives you "I can have it in the shop in the morning and out by the afternoon" for "a reasonable price" is only saying "I've been able to verify the plane has two wings, a vertical stabilizer, and an engine". 39 minutes ago, Matt Lindeman said: Is there a directory at hand of the most qualified shops/inspectors around the country? Not really, but many on here will have their opinions (some good, some not so good) about where you should go. Do not let geography and/or a low PPI cost force you to one shop or another. 39 minutes ago, Matt Lindeman said: Should I place a deposit before a pre-buy to ensure someone doesn’t scoop it up from underneath me? This is really between you and the seller/seller's agent (if applicable). It depends on your comfort and trust level. You should - at any time - be prepared to walk away no matter how good a deal looks if the seller and/or his/her agent won't be candid and transparent about representing every aspect of the airplane, answering your questions, and addressing your concerns. 39 minutes ago, Matt Lindeman said: What’s your experience with getting a deposit returned if the aircraft isn’t up to snuff after inspection? Again, it depends on the agreement between you and the selling party(ies). Typically, the way things work is that a price is agreed, and then adjusted if the PPI finds anything derogatory/in need of remediation. Any airworthy items would be up to the present owner to correct/remediate, but if they don't choose to do that, you would negotiate that remediation cost into the price and arrange to have them corrected yourself. Things that are non-critical but *could* fail in the short term should also be discussed, and adjusted - either all or in part - against the agreed-upon price. Broadly, if a buyer and seller are both reasonable with each other and transparent, things should go smoothly and you'll have not only a good buying experience, but a good ownership experience. Let us know more about you when you get the chance, and welcome aboard MS! Steve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 You should use an escrow service. It’s common, not expensive and will ensure the deposit is handled appropriately. Id consider using the Saavy pre-buy service, especially as a first time buyer. They will likely save you more than it costs and you’ll have confidence in your new airplane (although never a guarantee). Saavy will help you pick a good shop for the prebuy, coordinate it and advise you through the process. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lindeman Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, StevenL757 said: A lot of questions...let me fire the first shot...others will be along shortly. What model are you seeking? What is your flying background and overall mission? You should pick someone highly-qualified that has a proven track record of working on Mooneys that is completely detached from the airplane in question. Your best bet is to get an unbiased opinion of the airplane. Treat the PPI as an annual. Your PPI mechanic should plan to spend at least a couple of days going through the airplane. Anyone who gives you "I can have it in the shop in the morning and out by the afternoon" for "a reasonable price" is only saying "I've been able to verify the plane has two wings, a vertical stabilizer, and an engine". Not really, but many on here will have their opinions (some good, some not so good) about where you should go. Do not let geography and/or a low PPI cost force you to one shop or another. This is really between you and the seller/seller's agent (if applicable). It depends on your comfort and trust level. You should - at any time - be prepared to walk away no matter how good a deal looks if the seller and/or his/her agent won't be candid and transparent about representing every aspect of the airplane, answering your questions, and addressing your concerns. Again, it depends on the agreement between you and the selling party(ies). Typically, the way things work is that a price is agreed, and then adjusted if the PPI finds anything derogatory/in need of remediation. Any airworthy items would be up to the present owner to correct/remediate, but if they don't choose to do that, you would negotiate that remediation cost into the price and arrange to have them corrected yourself. Things that are non-critical but *could* fail in the short term should also be discussed, and adjusted - either all or in part - against the agreed-upon price. Broadly, if a buyer and seller are both reasonable with each other and transparent, things should go smoothly and you'll have not only a good buying experience, but a good ownership experience. Let us know more about you when you get the chance, and welcome aboard MS! Steve I'm seeking a C,E, or F model. I earned my PPL about 9 years ago, prior to my senior year in college. After college, I joined the Navy where I now serve as an F/A-18F Weapon Systems Officer. I have not had a chance to do any GA flying, but have found availability now with my current command and orders. I only have ~50 hours GA, and am currently in the process of getting current with a BFR from a buddy who is a CFI. Overall mission is a time builder and cross-country workhouse to be able to take the wife, dog, and newborn to PA and FL from VA, as well as fly around locally with a group of buddies who all fly together. I'd like to be able to earn a majority of my ratings in the airplane, so IFR capable is a must. Thanks for the advice on the Pre-Buy. I will definitely do my research, and reach out to MS when the time comes. I am more than willing to wait for the right plane to come to market, and I am also willing to walk away if necessary. A few bucks spent now is definitely worth preventing a lot of bucks spent later. I will be flying out of the Virginia Beach area, and would love to get in touch with local Mooniacs in the future! Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lindeman Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: You should use an escrow service. It’s common, not expensive and will ensure the deposit is handled appropriately. Id consider using the Saavy pre-buy service, especially as a first time buyer. They will likely save you more than it costs and you’ll have confidence in your new airplane (although never a guarantee). Saavy will help you pick a good shop for the prebuy, coordinate it and advise you through the process. Thanks for the SA. I will definitely look into Saavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 One good bit of advice, not original with me, is to "pre-buy" the owner as much or more than the airplane. If that is done well, then the other questions become non-issues. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Steve Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: One good bit of advice, not original with me, is to "pre-buy" the owner as much or more than the airplane. If that is done well, then the other questions become non-issues. I really had to trust my instinct on this very scenario. Seller was a real pain in my ass but the way he treated his airplane(s), cars, and generally his hangar had a very large impact on the eventual purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 It can be extra challenging to pre-buy some sellers.... Especially if you are buying somebody’s forever-plane... Matt, Something to consider... Start one thread and add to it.... Every day, add some more... This way people will get to know you, understand where you have been, and know which way you are going today... Each time you start a new thread... many people won’t recognize you... it’s get confusing... You will get better developed info... when they remember who you are... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1001001 Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) I got an excellent pre-buy done by a local shop who, while not known for their Mooney expertise, had a reputation for catching stuff in annual and PP inspections. I had them use the LASAR checklist for inspections. They quoted me 29 man-hours to do the inspection at their shop rate, and it was worth every penny. They caught a few problems that a simple "looky-loo" inspection over 6-8 hours would have missed. I also used the AOPA template for a sales agreement, edited to fit the circumstances. The seller and I laid out, in detail, the responsibilities in writing, and followed through. Since I was financing the airplane, the transaction by default went through an escrow service. When I sold my old Warrior II, I used the same escrow service, and the AOPA template, even though the buyer wasn't financing. The escrow service was worth it as well, they handled all the paperwork, and walked the buyer (a first time aircraft buyer) through the process. Edited August 6, 2020 by 1001001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Welcome to MS Matt & thank you for your service- 1. The AOPA purchase agreement is good, it pretty much spells out everything and it worked for me when push came to shove. 2. These folks are great for the escrow: Insured Aircraft Title Service, LLC 21 E. Main St., Suite 100 Oklahoma City, OK 73104 Phone: 405-681-6663 U.S.: 800-654-4882 Fax: 405-684-5036 3. Don't go near anything M20P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 I used an escrow service to handle the money and title. I went rogue on the rest of my deal, however. In my sub $50K price range I asked myself if I was buying a used car from a private party would I be writing up a contract and negotiating all the eventualities? Not really. Seller and I agreed on price and that my mechanic would do an inspection and we'd talk about anything found. We shook hands. Nothing in writing, but no deposit from me. He flew the plane to my mechanic. Nothing major found. Wired the money, and seller sent the title, to the escrow. Picked the plane up and flew it home. I think the comment of evaluating the seller crucial. If you get the feeling the seller is hiding something/slippery then run away... If I was looking at $200K+ aircraft I'd feel differently about having a written contract. But, I think we often make a bigger deal than is necessary out of some of these purchases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Mike, I like your approach... 1) After selling machines for a few years... I always wrote a purchase agreement... 2) It was a simple summary... 3) It basically covered everything we discussed... in a familiar numbered format... 4) What was included... 5) What was excluded... 6) The price... 7) The PPI details... 8) The timeline.... 9) The final details... that changed back and forth in the last few minutes.... 10) a pair of signatures... mine and theirs... Why? My memory was never that good... and theirs will be about the same a week or two later. Did I include the cover or not? Hmmmmm.... dunno.... time to check what we wrote down... Before delivering the keys... check the agreement to see if I have delivered everything I promised.... Its not so much a trust thing... it’s a CRS thing... No lawyer required... PP thoughts only, Not a sales guy... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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