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Invoice for work I didn't request by an avionics guy I haven't spoken to in a year


Oldguy

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13 hours ago, PTK said:

So you were there while they were performing the work? 

Walked in as they were finishing the work.

13 hours ago, RLCarter said:

have you had them come out to your hangar for the IFR cks  in the past?

Nope. I have taken my plane to their hangar even to have the most minor work done as it is about 300 yards or less from mine. Just paranoid enough to want the shop's insurance to be in effect if something happens while they are working on it. Only person who works on my plane in my hangar is me.

12 hours ago, Cruiser said:

What is the "rest of the story" ?

Our last encounter prior to this one was a discussion on having him do a MAX upgrade to my Aspen, add the MAX MFD, install an IFD 540 I got from avionics source and essentially redo my center stack. I took him the pricing I got at SNF last year the week after I got back and he said he could not do it for that price and it would be essentially twice the price Aspen gave me - not including labor. He asked where I got the IFD, and when I told him he said I needed to get them to install it as he doesn't install anything he doesn't sell. (He is an Avidyne dealer at list + ~10%) Since then (April 2019) he has not touched my plane.

Also found out last night he has done this to a couple of other tenants at the airport this past week. Going to check with them to see what their thoughts are, but I am definitely going to speak with the FBO manager and the airport authority board about this.

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

I'm in the "I don't know enough" camp, except to say the first step is discussion

Well, I was willing to pay for a portion of it needing to be done, even if I didn't request them to do it, and here is how I approached him about what he did in the email I sent him:

I spoke to (his guy in my hangar) and let him know the 91.413 had been done and was not needed at this time. Please redo the invoice and the logbook sticker if necessary and let me know when they are done.

 

His reply:

 

 

Ok, now I am where I can actually address this.

Normal pricing:

Price for 91.411 and 91.413 single altitude display and single transponder = $400.00

Price for each additional altitude display (Garmin, Aspen, etc) = $50.00

Price for a second transponder = $50.00

Price for 91.411 single altitude display no 91.413 = $350.00

Price for 91.413 single transponder no 91.411 = $150.00

So if they are done together it is less because we don't have to haul and set up again.

If you really want me to separate this then next time there will be a $150.00 for the 91.413 then a few months later $350 for a 91.411 for a total of $500.00.  That is assuming that prices remain the same.

And I didn't even charge you for the two additional altitude displays (two Aspens and a standby altimeter).

What do you want to do?

 

So I am taking from his response not only did he do me a favor by doing the checks, but gave me a discount I should be happy getting. And am I wrong in thinking there is a hint I will pay more next time if I ask him to do these checks ever again? Do any of you work with shops whose business practices are similar to these?

On the flip side, there are people here on MS who use his shop and have no problems with him. That is great, but apparently I am not one of them.

I hope this answered some of the questions and filled in some of the blanks.

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2 hours ago, PTK said:

This is always a good idea and an expression of gratitude. As long as he includes a check in payment of their invoice. He was present when they were performing the work and by not stopping them, then and there, he effectively consented to the work. It would be unethical to have someone work for you and not pay them! Also it is embarrassing to post it on the internet! If he truly felt that they trespassed and entered the hangar unwanted he should’ve stopped them immediately and investigate. Not post on the internet after the fact questioning if he should pay for their services or not! What is that?!

 

I didnt see anywhere that he let them do anything. He walked up and the hangar door was open and they were doing work. Perhaps I missed a post above?? Were they almost finished and he left them clean up? Had they just started and he told them to do it? Maybe we didnt get enough detail. Regardless, it's my understanding that they entered without authorization and worked on a plane. That's enough for me.... 

 

I also like the idea of paying for the months that cert got extended by. Remember, these idiots showed up several months late and claimed they were there for scheduled maintenance. 

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Avionics shops can be weird like that. I’ve worked with a few that have done the same thing. Worst is GNS 430/530 software updates. Go in for a simple squawk and the bill doubles because the tech thought it’d be a good idea to update to the latest software. Stop. 
Or explorative troubleshooting, swapping parts then getting billed twice. Once for the original swap and again for a new audio panel that doesn’t fix the problem.
Finally, “we’ll mail you the paperwork”, 1.2 years later and they still can’t produce a log book entry. 
But they hold the keys, because Garmin says so.

I’d still make friends with the shop and take the high road.
Scoff,

-Matt

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Looks like my above questions were answered while I was typing. 

This seems easy to me. Ask who booked the appointment. Ask who authorized the work and when. When he mumbles and draws a blank stare you (and he)will know hes made a mistake. Hand him a check for 4 months worth of IFR cert and a 6 pack of beer and tell him you want to remain on good terms but that he is clearly in the wrong. If he acts like a dick then post his shops name for everyone to know. If he has any sense of decency then it shouldnt be hard for him to take your partial payment and acknowledge his mistake. 

But do this in person as mentioned above. Thats what I would do. 

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3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

The FAA doesn't take anyone's side on liens. It doesn't even really check to see if they are proper. Letting the FAA know you are contesting is pretty much meaningless. It doesn't care. The only ones who care about it are the line filer, the owner, a lender, and a later purchaser.

And whether they can legitimately file a lien is a matter of state, not federal law, although people do illegally file liens, even on real estate.

Basically what I was going for is the FAA will allow the lien whether it’s right or not. They don’t check it’s validity- like you said, they don’t really care.

-Don

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Avionics shops can be weird like that. I’ve worked with a few that have done the same thing. Worst is GNS 430/530 software updates. Go in for a simple squawk and the bill doubles because the tech thought it’d be a good idea to update to the latest software. Stop. 
Or explorative troubleshooting, swapping parts then getting billed twice. Once for the original swap and again for a new audio panel that doesn’t fix the problem.
Finally, “we’ll mail you the paperwork”, 1.2 years later and they still can’t produce a log book entry. 
But they hold the keys, because Garmin says so.
I’d still make friends with the shop and take the high road.
Scoff,
-Matt

For this kind of problem, you need to walk in, and stand face to face:
You: i need a log entry.
Him: I can’t do it right now.
You: I’ll wait....I see you guys are working on something... I’ll go look over their shoulders while you do the log entry.
Walk over and start asking questions....”Boy that’s a lot of wires, how do keep it all straight ?“, “Are they always gray?”....

I’m betting you will get your log entry pronto.
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1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

What would I do if I walked into my house and found a work crew building me a new kitchen I hadn't asked for, authorized, or allowed them in?

Irrelevant. Hardly a comparison.

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2 hours ago, Oldguy said:

So I am taking from his response not only did he do me a favor by doing the checks, but gave me a discount I should be happy getting.

As I said earlier, pay the invoice and say thank you! 

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47 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I'm lost. Their response sounded like there was some authorized work (the 411) and they added the 413 because the overall costs would come out less in the long run.

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

The plane has been in another avionics shop for a few months getting work done. That shop did the 413 at the time they installed a remote transponder. I got the plane back a week before this event happened. The last 411 and 413 were done by the shop on my field in April of 2018. When I found out they had done what they did without my knowledge or authorization, I reconciled myself to the fact I did need the 411, so I was willing to pay for it alone.

Nothing was authorized by me prior to it being done, but I acknowledged the 411 needed to be done. Would I have had them do it if they had called or texted me asking if I needed anything done? More than likely, but I would have had an opportunity to get a price quote and make the decision before the work took place.

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On 8/4/2020 at 11:31 PM, PT20J said:

This seems pretty simple:

1. Work done you didn't authorize is not billable and could be construed as tampering.

2. Tampering with aircraft may be a crime in many jurisdictions.

Skip

 

This^^^^

I cannot fathom finding that someone has entered a secure building without authorization to perform unauthorized maintenance on an aircraft that I own.   At best I would've politely asked the mx guys in the hangar to cease while I called the shop owner to straighten out the misunderstanding.  At worst...I would immediately asked for authorization and then chewed them a new one when they were unable to produce it.  If you allowed them complete the work with you present, then you're on the hook for the work.  If you told them to stop the check, pack up and go...then I would tell the shop that you will not be paying for unauthorized work and that it's best for all involved if this turns out to be an isolated incident.

Edited by Shadrach
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So the plane was gone when the static/transponder checks were due. 

When the plane returned the avionics shop on your field that had done the previous checks took it upon themselves to do the work without your authorization. 

You needed the static system check as it was past due.

Price for 91.411 single altitude display no 91.413 = $350.00 per your previous post. 

I would tell him how surprised you were to find his people working on your plane that in the future you need to authorize all and any work and just pay the bill in total.

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I was under the impression that the work wasnt needed and that it was late even if it had been needed.

You have to be honest with yourself on how much you let them do. If they were finishing then there isnt much you could have done. The work was unauthorized so its not billable. But if you needed it and would have done it anyway then just pay for the service you needed and dont pay the rest.  You should still express your dissatisfaction.  

The house analogy was a bit exaggerated but is still a comparison. 

I think we know who the shop owner is in this thread....

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On 8/4/2020 at 1:52 PM, Oldguy said:

So I go out to my hangar last Friday to find it open and the local avionics group doing a 91.411 and 91.413 check on my J. While I appreciate proactive maintenance, I would have thought I would at least have gotten a text or call about doing it. Especially since I had a remote transponder installed in spring and the 91.411 done at that time. Now, the avionics shop has sent me an invoice for doing this work I didn't request. I have figured out how he got a key to the hangar since he doesn't have one (and he won't get it again without me knowing), and he did the same checks in May 2018 when he installed my Aspen PFD. He and I have gotten cross-ways since then, but I thought we were back on track.

So what would y'all do?

Pay the money for something you didn't request, didn't need, and didn't authorize, or let him know to keep the logbook sticker and place it somewhere it will not fade from sunlight?

Am I making too much of fuss over a $400 invoice?

First, what Transponder was installed?  Most of the installation manuals require, as a part of the installation prior to return to service, a 91.411/413 to be performed. It SHOULD have been a art of the installation.  That is the ethical part of this business that gets overlooked at times.  

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12 hours ago, Baker Avionics said:

First, what Transponder was installed?  Most of the installation manuals require, as a part of the installation prior to return to service, a 91.411/413 to be performed. It SHOULD have been a art of the installation.  That is the ethical part of this business that gets overlooked at times.  

The original poster did say that the 91.413 was done when the transponder was installed and that is the rub here.  It was only a couple of months after installation and this shop was doing another 91.413.  However, he did say the 91.411 was due or soon to be due he just did not authorize it to be done.

It bugs me when aviation maintenance shops fell they can just do work when it is not authorized.  I have had it happen to me before and thankfully I now work with a shop that won't do anything on my airplane without my prior approval.  It is understood and we have a good working relationship because of the boundaries set prior to work.  I know there are others out there that just say whatever is wrong just fix it and send me a bill.  I want to be a part of the process as much as I can.

I can understand how frustrating the original poster may feel but I think at this point I would pay the bill (the headache and stomach acid are not worth it) but I would have the discussion about how things will go in the future or that you will not require their services ever again.

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Being that it was not authorized nor had it even been discussed I wouldn’t pay. Regardless on how far into the checks the technician was when the owner walked in, they are obligated to reassemble to the point of where it was before the work started. As the owner of the aircraft I wouldn’t pay, I also wouldn’t expect the log entries either, as the shop owner I would except the error and as a offer of good faith hand the aircraft owner the log entries at no charge and apologize for the mistake. I will say If the shop owner did the above I would at that point (depending on how hard it was to get there) I would probably pay something if not all being  invoiced. Should the shop threaten or even file a lien, while a pain, it’s just paper work, counter his moves with criminal trespass and tampering with an aircraft which could be jail time, fines and/or loss of certificates, the shop would be miles ahead to just walk away if it comes down to this

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3 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

The original poster did say that the 91.413 was done when the transponder was installed and that is the rub here.  It was only a couple of months after installation and this shop was doing another 91.413.  However, he did say the 91.411 was due or soon to be due he just did not authorize it to be done.

It bugs me when aviation maintenance shops fell they can just do work when it is not authorized.  I have had it happen to me before and thankfully I now work with a shop that won't do anything on my airplane without my prior approval.  It is understood and we have a good working relationship because of the boundaries set prior to work.  I know there are others out there that just say whatever is wrong just fix it and send me a bill.  I want to be a part of the process as much as I can.

I can understand how frustrating the original poster may feel but I think at this point I would pay the bill (the headache and stomach acid are not worth it) but I would have the discussion about how things will go in the future or that you will not require their services ever again.

Agree with you more, I couldn't.  The points you brought out are valid and real.  That is why I opened my shop because I worked and plenty of companies and this was their mantra.  If it is not approved, it doesn't get worked.  If we do something and the customer didn't approved it, we give it to them for no charge.  The real issue is that IF the unit was installed per the Installation manual and STC, which points the Installation Manual, does it state to do the 91.411 and 91.413?  I understand the customer's frustration and he needs to stick up for himself to ensure the shop doesn't do it to others.  Paying the bill and talking to them, even if the customer doesn't go back is doing nothing but empowering that shop, in my opinion.  We are a small community and we need to help each other out in this way.  After all, isn't that why we are on these forums, to help each other out?

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