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Flap Issue/Not working


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3 hours ago, Tahir K said:

From speaking to Bob, LASAR, and Don...it seems to be the ball issue. I'm gonna have it sent out to be repaired within this week and hopefully I can get more details on HOW it was fixed to share with you guys in case anyone has this issue down the road.

I think Lasar can do it, but I know Bob can since he did mine.  He'll treat you right, of that I'm certain.

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9 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I hope he didn’t charge you for a weeks labour without first check to see how much LASAR would have charged first.  It may well have been more cost effective to send it out to someone who could fix it in a few hours.

Clarence

Or even a few minutes... Removing the pump is more time consuming than “overhauling” the pump.

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5 hours ago, Tahir K said:


Don't move at all. It doesn't even fill like it's filling up. Just feels like I'm pumping the level to no end without any resistance. Seems to be the ball issue. I'll post an update of whether or not they work when I get the pump back from it's servicing.

The rebuild may inadvertently solve your problem by correcting an installation or fluid supply issue that is only manifesting itself on the ground.  If the pump worked fine in the air, there is no logical reason why a rebuild would solve a problem that is only happening on the ground.  In most cases I find it’s better to spend a little time and money to investigate a problem rather than just blindly throwing parts at it. Do keep us posted.

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On my plane, the hard line coming out of the reservoir for the flaps actually bends "up" to a level equal right at the top of the reservoir, before heading back down. Pressure bleeding quickly from the actuator while keeping the reservoir full the whole time was the only way to eliminate the potential an air bubble there. My installation may not be correct

20190204_055250.jpg

Edited by PilotCoyote
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16 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Or even a few minutes... Removing the pump is more time consuming than “overhauling” the pump.

Says you.  Like I said, my guy spent a week fixing the dang thing.  I suppose it goes faster if you already know how to do it.

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9 hours ago, steingar said:

Says you.  Like I said, my guy spent a week fixing the dang thing.  I suppose it goes faster if you already know how to do it.

It really is a simple device. I’m not trying to be contrary. I’ve overhauled a few of them. Doesn’t make me an expert it’s more of a testament to their simplicity. @TheTurtle put together a nice write up on his first time overhauling his. All O-rings and leathers can easily be replaced in under a half hour. It’s the install, system bleed and adjustment that are time consuming.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Update:

Flap issue has been fixed! I ended up taking the plane to Don Maxwell at KGGG (luckily live very close). Here's the logbook entry for those that want to know what was done to repair the flap pump:

"Removed flap pump and placed in test stand. Pump inop. Disassembled pump, inspect and reassembled. Pump inop. Tried to blow compressed air into inlet. Appears to be plugged. Disassemble valve body. Wrong spring, too long, installed under suction ball not allowing it to move. Replaced spring and ops check good. Reinstalled pump."

It was not a fluid issue or an actuator issue even though we bled the flaps and changed the o-rings in the actuator. 

In hindsight I probably should have stayed in the pattern for a few touch and goes before departing back. When I arrived home and got into the pattern I realized the flaps were still inoperative and would come up as soon as I lowered them. Had to fly all the way back to KGGG for a quick fix and then departed back home for the second time. You live and you learn.

Overall, a great first experience at Maxwell's. Everyone treated us very kindly and best of all my plane is fixed!

A huge thank you to @steingarfor pointing us in the right direction and letting us speak to his mechanic who was also very helpful. Thanks to everyone else and @Shadrach for trying to help trouble shoot and give possible solutions!

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Great pirep, Tahir!

Check your log books... there may be evidence of who put the wrong spring in and adjusted the flap return speed...
 

The mechanic probably needs to be a Mooney pilot to properly understand the flap return speed while flying...

Best regards,

-a-

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On 8/20/2020 at 11:01 AM, Tahir K said:

Update:

Flap issue has been fixed! I ended up taking the plane to Don Maxwell at KGGG (luckily live very close). Here's the logbook entry for those that want to know what was done to repair the flap pump:

"Removed flap pump and placed in test stand. Pump inop. Disassembled pump, inspect and reassembled. Pump inop. Tried to blow compressed air into inlet. Appears to be plugged. Disassemble valve body. Wrong spring, too long, installed under suction ball not allowing it to move. Replaced spring and ops check good. Reinstalled pump."

It was not a fluid issue or an actuator issue even though we bled the flaps and changed the o-rings in the actuator. 

In hindsight I probably should have stayed in the pattern for a few touch and goes before departing back. When I arrived home and got into the pattern I realized the flaps were still inoperative and would come up as soon as I lowered them. Had to fly all the way back to KGGG for a quick fix and then departed back home for the second time. You live and you learn.

Overall, a great first experience at Maxwell's. Everyone treated us very kindly and best of all my plane is fixed!

A huge thank you to @steingarfor pointing us in the right direction and letting us speak to his mechanic who was also very helpful. Thanks to everyone else and @Shadrach for trying to help trouble shoot and give possible solutions!

Glad you got it worked out. None of the explanations above explain why the pump worked fine in the air.

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On 7/30/2020 at 4:09 PM, PilotCoyote said:

I would first check hydraulic reservoir Level and that reservoir vent flows freely in both directions. The Fitting on the reservoir For the flap is in the side of the reservoir, so if the level gets very low, it cuts off the flaps. The brakes are connected to the very bottom fitting, and will get the very last of the hydraulic fluid if the reservoir level drops too low.

+1 on this. 

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Just had my flap pump rebuilt by LASER and they charged me $242.95.  That was the cheapest part of the repair.  The 20 hours of labor to have it removed, reinstalled and system bled is what really caused a hit to the pocket book! 

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Just had my flap pump rebuilt by LASER and they charged me $242.95.  That was the cheapest part of the repair.  The 20 hours of labor to have it removed, reinstalled and system bled is what really caused a hit to the pocket book! 

This is theft.
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  • 7 months later...

Hi All,

Great information. I now have a flap issue which would seem to point to the actuator. Yesterday I was on approach and pumped twice and the flaps extended. I went to put the 3rd pump in and the flap handle went limp. I pumped with no resistance. I did a go around and the flaps that were down retracted and I headed back to my home airport. This time on approach, flap handle had no pressure and I was unable to lower flaps. After landing and getting to my hangar, the symptom changed. I feel pressure when I try to lower the flaps , on the first pump the flaps go down but, the handle immediately bounces back and the flap retracts.

I have ordered a rebuilt kit for the actuator also, I do not detect any leaks. Can anyone provide any advice on what to check?

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3 hours ago, TJSuper21 said:

Hi All,

Great information. I now have a flap issue which would seem to point to the actuator. Yesterday I was on approach and pumped twice and the flaps extended. I went to put the 3rd pump in and the flap handle went limp. I pumped with no resistance. I did a go around and the flaps that were down retracted and I headed back to my home airport. This time on approach, flap handle had no pressure and I was unable to lower flaps. After landing and getting to my hangar, the symptom changed. I feel pressure when I try to lower the flaps , on the first pump the flaps go down but, the handle immediately bounces back and the flap retracts.

I have ordered a rebuilt kit for the actuator also, I do not detect any leaks. Can anyone provide any advice on what to check?

Maybe it’s time for new brake pads.  The majority of your fluid could be sitting in your calipers displacing worn pads.

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Just now, 1967 427 said:

Maybe it’s time for new brake pads.  The majority of your fluid could be sitting in your calipers displacing worn pads.

And a potential hydraulic leak in the brake system could prevent the flaps from working.  Brake master cylinders, parking brake valve, plumbing/hoses, and calipers.

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brakes and flaps share the same fluid reservoir...

The flaps get air in their system before the brakes do...

The fluid return lines back to the reservoir... can get old and crusty, and start leaking...

When the return lines leak... they drop one drip at a time onto the belly panel where it collects dust and doesn’t run very far...

It is possible to leave a whole lot of hydraulic fluid on the top side of the belly panel without it showing up in an obvious way...

 

PP thoughts only, from my M20C experience...

Best regards,

-a-

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10 hours ago, 47U said:

And a potential hydraulic leak in the brake system could prevent the flaps from working.  Brake master cylinders, parking brake valve, plumbing/hoses, and calipers.

Negative. A leak in the brake system may  drain the shared reservoir but it will not affect the operation of the flaps as long as the flap system is fluid tight.

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16 hours ago, TJSuper21 said:

Hi All,

Great information. I now have a flap issue which would seem to point to the actuator. Yesterday I was on approach and pumped twice and the flaps extended. I went to put the 3rd pump in and the flap handle went limp. I pumped with no resistance. I did a go around and the flaps that were down retracted and I headed back to my home airport. This time on approach, flap handle had no pressure and I was unable to lower flaps. After landing and getting to my hangar, the symptom changed. I feel pressure when I try to lower the flaps , on the first pump the flaps go down but, the handle immediately bounces back and the flap retracts.

I have ordered a rebuilt kit for the actuator also, I do not detect any leaks. Can anyone provide any advice on what to check?

Reads like there is a blockage in the system. Ordering the rebuild kit is good idea since he system will need to be opened up any way. 

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