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How do you value this engine time?


NJMac

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Factory Rebuilt Engine installed 2006, flown 2200 flawlessly. Top overhaul by Dan Kendall at DLK Aviation, Kennesaw, GA 08Dec2015. Ground valve seats, honed cylinders, replaced intake valves, exhaust valves, pistons (balanced set), piston pins and ring sets, except cylinder #3 replaced with overhaul from Harrison Aviation Service. Continues to run great with no issues. Good compressions, low oil use (approx 1 quart/15 hours) and regular oil analysis.

Currently described as 3090 SFOH.

Is this engine 900 or 3100? How does one value this on a potential purchase? 

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Since it is long past TBO...

It gets valued as nice to have as a core...

nice to have to demonstrate the rest of the airplane is AW...

So on a scale of 0 -10 it earns a solid 0...
 

If used as a core for factory reman... there will Probably be a requirement To include all the bolt on things like starter, alternator, Mags, cylinders, exhaust parts... etc...
 

In the event that it can’t be used as a core... the 0 - 10 range would not apply, the scale could go negative quickly, for anything missing or unusable...
 

If the least bit interested in buying such a thing.... it would make the most sense to put a chart together for dates, hours, and what got serviced.... writing about it in a paragraph format is like a math word problem... the info may be there, but it is hiding intentionally... not the best way to add value...

PP logic only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

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12 minutes ago, NJMac said:

I've had to read it a few times to understand what I think I do. But still not certain. I reached out to the seller, we'll see what he can add.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 

In that case...

It is probably better for somebody else to own...

Somebody with the experience to buy and sell engine parts... at the individual level...

Too difficult or expensive for an ordinary PP to take on...

Around here, Alan just sold an engine for 8AMU.... with all the details easy to read...

Example of how to buy/sell an engine...

 

Bob-S50 brings up the most important point... there is somebody looking to buy the plane, fully run-out, priced to move...

That buyer has a plan of how to get his engine built...

There is still some risk when something like the cam, crank, or case, is unable to be re-used.... this risk is somewhat limited...

PP thoughts again...

Best regards,

-a-

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Interesting to note, on the mooney flyer tool, it keeps subtracting dollars beyond 2000 hrs.  https://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20RValuation.html

Wouldn't a run out engine at 2000 hrs be worth the same as one with 3100 hrs?

Apparently someone did have a plan for this engine.  Plane is already in PPI. 

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3 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Interesting to note, on the mooney flyer tool, it keeps subtracting dollars beyond 2000 hrs.  https://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20RValuation.html

Wouldn't a run out engine at 2000 hrs be worth the same as one with 3100 hrs?

Apparently someone did have a plan for this engine.  Plane is already in PPI. 

Yeah, I saw it too... a tks Ovation priced to move.  Someday I’ll have tks...

I would’ve valued that engine as totally runout as well, but I  thought price reflected that, no?

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8 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Interesting to note, on the mooney flyer tool, it keeps subtracting dollars beyond 2000 hrs.  https://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20RValuation.html

Wouldn't a run out engine at 2000 hrs be worth the same as one with 3100 hrs?

Apparently someone did have a plan for this engine.  Plane is already in PPI. 

Yes

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Keep in mind...

Engine value becomes a much smaller portion of the overall nut when looking at Long Bodies...

An average O is over 200amu... it’s engine replacement cost was about 35amu when I’d did it last...

Prices from continental were available on the web...
 

When a seller tells you all the details like this... he is already saying the price already is lowered to account for the high engine times...

They call that full disclosure... this is what you get for this price...

 

Now where the fun is...  if it hasn’t been upgraded to the 310hp STC... this would be the perfect opportunity to get an O, and get the TopProp... :)

TKS is icing on the cake!

Best regards,

-a-

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3 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah, I saw it too... a tks Ovation priced to move.  Someday I’ll have tks...

I would’ve valued that engine as totally runout as well, but I  thought price reflected that, no?

that valuation tool said it was only worth +/- $135k, if you used 2000 hrs on engine and $110k if you used 3100 hrs.  Curious to know what the buyer negotiated. 

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2 minutes ago, NJMac said:

that valuation tool said it was only worth +/- $135k, if you used 2000 hrs on engine and $110k if you used 3100 hrs.  Curious to know what the buyer negotiated. 

Interesting.  Seemed like a good deal assuming (which is dangerous) you could overhaul the engine without new cam/crank.

UL was a bit lower than id like.  I may be stuck waiting for an eagle with tks to get 1000ul+.

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5 minutes ago, NJMac said:

that valuation tool said it was only worth +/- $135k, if you used 2000 hrs on engine and $110k if you used 3100 hrs.  Curious to know what the buyer negotiated. 


If you are familiar with the valuation tool... and have questions how it handles engine times...

The original author of the valuation tool is Jimmy... aka JG above....
 

Jimmy has the most experience and data to support proper pricing for used Mooneys...

Send him a PM...
 

The cost to you might require you to look at what he has in inventory...

Full disclosure... I bought an O1 directly from Jimmy a decade ago...   :)

Best regards,

-a-

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4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Interesting.  Seemed like a good deal assuming (which is dangerous) you could overhaul the engine without new cam/crank.

UL was a bit lower than id like.  I may be stuck waiting for an eagle with tks to get 1000ul+.

Could happen sooner rather than later...

 

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Just now, carusoam said:


If you are familiar with the valuation tool... and have questions how it handles engine times...

The original author of the valuation tool is Jimmy... aka JG above....
 

-a-

I am actually not the author of that valuation tool, although it is often attributed to me. However, it is based on my formulas used in the MAPA magazine that I authored from around 1998 until sometime in the late 2000's. Valuing an aircraft can be difficult and a good guide can help the process. At one time, I was a mostly Bluebook guy. Then I started a combo of Bluebook and VRef, adjusting both for where they were wrong. Then I stopped using VRef altogether because it became unreliable. I have now switched, no longer subscribing to Bluebook and back to using VRef, again adjusted for where they have things wrong. The new owner of VRef does contact me several times a year and we make some adjustments in the Mooney values where necessary. They still don't have it altogether, but it is way better than it used to be and altogether better than BB.

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Continental has core amnesty , almost every year , That makes this engine worth the same as any other ...  It is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it .... Generally when the conversation resembles this thread , The plane usually goes to someone else....

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3090 SFOH. It might be a good engine that goes for another 1000 hours, but it should carry the value of an engine that's at TBO. The owner got 1000 hours out of it for the cost of getting the top end serviced, so he's already up $10-15k. 

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I bought my M20F with 2100 SMOH and a run-out price.  That was coming up on three years and 300 hours ago.  Happy camper even if I the engine needs OH tomorrow:D

But then I've never put much credence in an arbitrary number.  I'm a big believer in Mike Busch's on condition approach.  I can't even imagine what some folks here would do if auto manufacturer's suddenly said their engines were 'run out' at 150,000 miles! Oh, the horror:o

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But the car market is very much the same. Most cars take a hit on their value at 100K miles. And cars with over 250K miles are also priced accordingly. 

A savvy buyer will not pay a price that assumes getting 1000 hours past TBO. You pay a price appropriate for an engine that will need an overhaul at TBO. And then you hope that you can get another 1000 hours out of it.

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2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

But the car market is very much the same. Most cars take a hit on their value at 100K miles. And cars with over 250K miles are also priced accordingly. 

A savvy buyer will not pay a price that assumes getting 1000 hours past TBO. You pay a price appropriate for an engine that will need an overhaul at TBO. And then you hope that you can get another 1000 hours out of it.

Thing with cars is engine condition is not based on an arbitrary number of miles (I do agree there's a 'hit' at 100K). No one, but no one, buys a car and expects the engine to be worthless based on some fixed number of miles.  They buy "on condition" and miles is just one factor.  Not so with aircraft engines.  Always seemed weird.  But hey, it's certainly worked in my favor!

100% in agreement with your second paragraph!

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