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LED light installation


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3 hours ago, shawnd said:

@MATTS875, from what I am told by others, first step is determine how long it will take, then account for 3x that of downtime while you go through this. It will definitely be a fun process but don't rush and also don't expect to go flying right away.

@carusoam thanks for pulling me in. Now if only there was an easy way to replace the recog lights...

 

Thanks. I appreciate the advice. The lights will be here in a couple of days so I will be doing research while I wait. I have never done anything of this caliber it’s a little well a lot intimidating.  There is so much knowledge here on the site so that’s a big help..  much thanks to everyone

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3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Also important to figure out if your plane has 1, 2, or 3 power supplies for the strobes. My 1999 eagle had 2. One behind the seats, and one in the tail. Some have 3. And i think some have 1. You can figure it out by first looking in the tail section. If you need help shoot me a PM and i can walk you through it. All it is, is a bit of wire crimping. The lights fit with ease.

Thanks. I’ll be at the airport this weekend and start looking into it. Is there a panel behind the seats to remove so I can see if I have a power supply there?

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38 minutes ago, MATTS875 said:

Thanks. I’ll be at the airport this weekend and start looking into it. Is there a panel behind the seats to remove so I can see if I have a power supply there?

Take off the large square panel behind the left wing. Should have a couple dozen or so quarter-turn (Dzus) fasteners holding it on. Lean your head and shoulders inside the now gaping hole in the fuselage and look to your right.

Lots of fun stuff lives back there--static drains, ELT, the brain to my Brittain, wires to the belly strobe, elevator and rudder pushrods and universal joints, some planes have a battery there . . . . Mine has a lot of zinc chromate.

While you're nosing around back there, when you're all done and cleaned up, spray all those moving control rods with some Tri Flow, and repeat every time you're back there (every annual, and whenever else you remove it).

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Message for ShawnD... have you seen the latest for the recog lights...There has been an uptick in Elf activity around the recog lighting center... :)

The elves have sourced a good Whelen unit... described the cutting of the projector mirror... and a bit of testing has been completed related to the heat output...

:)

-a-

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4 hours ago, carusoam said:

Message for ShawnD... have you seen the latest for the recog lights...There has been an uptick in Elf activity around the recog lighting center... :)

The elves have sourced a good Whelen unit... described the cutting of the projector mirror... and a bit of testing has been completed related to the heat output...

:)

-a-

Now if only that Elf came up with a business plan :)

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22 hours ago, Hank said:

Take off the large square panel behind the left wing. Should have a couple dozen or so quarter-turn (Dzus) fasteners holding it on. Lean your head and shoulders inside the now gaping hole in the fuselage and look to your right.

Lots of fun stuff lives back there--static drains, ELT, the brain to my Brittain, wires to the belly strobe, elevator and rudder pushrods and universal joints, some planes have a battery there . . . . Mine has a lot of zinc chromate.

While you're nosing around back there, when you're all done and cleaned up, spray all those moving control rods with some Tri Flow, and repeat every time you're back there (every annual, and whenever else you remove it).

Thanks. Will do. I’ll be at the airport Saturday. 

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On 7/27/2020 at 11:52 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm not qualified to speak about the connectors... I'm sure a proper A&P will be along soon with that information. But that would be the last step. 

So yeah, first step is removing all the panels. You can also remove the existing power supplies. Then figure out where to run the wires and how many to run. You won't put connectors on anything until after the wires are all run.

I'm not an A&P either, but to avoid any trouble with IAs, I'm using what Mooney used originally for connectors - i.e. the stock Whelen Molex.  They're on Spruce and you need both the Whelen A444 and Whelen A446 and in my case I also got the proper crimping tool.

And make sure to use proper 20AWG Milspec wire.   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQWJ162/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

EDIT:  where A&P and IA's rightfully start objecting is when folks use automotive connectors and wires - and this seems to be a common problem when hangar fairies start doing work.  I certainly don't want to inherit a plane where this was done.

Edited by pwnel
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Just now, OR75 said:

Again, BEFORE  doing any work, make sure you find an A&P willing to sign off on your work. 

I disagree with that sentiment.  I'm not taking my plane to an A&P to replace a nav light.  That is why 43.3 and the Coleal letter exists and it's fully within a pilot owners authority to preventative maintenance like that.  If your A&P has a problem with that, you should switch A&P's right away as they don't understand the FAA regulations around this.

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2 hours ago, pwnel said:

I disagree with that sentiment.  I'm not taking my plane to an A&P to replace a nav light.  That is why 43.3 and the Coleal letter exists and it's fully within a pilot owners authority to preventative maintenance like that.  If your A&P has a problem with that, you should switch A&P's right away as they don't understand the FAA regulations around this.

Preventive maintenance Appendix A allows you to change a light bulb or lenses.   I believe the scope is wider here since it is a whole strobe light system which may have an impact on the power draw and W&B with the removal of the power supplies.  

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Preventive maintenance Appendix A allows you to change a light bulb or lenses.   I believe the scope is wider here since it is a whole strobe light system which may have an impact on the power draw and W&B with the removal of the power supplies.  

I believe the letter reference allows owner maintenance that’s not explicitly listed, like checking air pressure, which can be considered covered by “repair of landing gear tires”.
Appendix A explicitly calls out bulbs, lenses, reflectors of landing and position lights. There is no verbiage on replacement of other lights like recognition or interior lights. I find it hard to believe that they explicitly let you repair landing light circuits (16) capable of carrying 20 amps but won’t allow you to replace a interior light or a recognition light with LED lamp that draws 1/10 amp.
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47 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:


I believe the letter reference allows owner maintenance that’s not explicitly listed, like checking air pressure, which can be considered covered by “repair of landing gear tires”.
Appendix A explicitly calls out bulbs, lenses, reflectors of landing and position lights. There is no verbiage on replacement of other lights like recognition or interior lights. I find it hard to believe that they explicitly let you repair landing light circuits (16) capable of carrying 20 amps but won’t allow you to replace a interior light or a recognition light with LED lamp that draws 1/10 amp.

I don't believe the verbiage allows you to repair a landing light circuits. I allows you to replace the bulb 

I would need to re look at the list but i don't believe any of the "preventative maintenance" items allow for a change in weight and balance  

Edited by OR75
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I don't believe the verbiage allows you to repair a landing light circuits. I allows you to replace the bulb 
I would need to re look at the list but i don't believe any of the "preventative maintenance" items allow for a change in weight and balance  

True about W&B but not landing circuits, from 2016 FarAim:
43A©(16) “ troubleshooting and repairing broken circuits landing light wiring circuits.”
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2 hours ago, OR75 said:

I don't believe the verbiage allows you to repair a landing light circuits. I allows you to replace the bulb 

The list is FAR Part 43 Appendix A, and the only wiring repairs specifically listed under Preventive Maintenance (section c) is for landing lights, (c)16, "Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits."

I think it's an example of how low in priority landing lights are in the things that the FAA cares about.  ;)

2 hours ago, OR75 said:

I would need to re look at the list but i don't believe any of the "preventative maintenance" items allow for a change in weight and balance  

For an airplane with gross weight of less than 5000 lbs, a change in weight of less than a pound is considered negligible and doesn't require updating the W&B.   If the difference in weight of a replacement is in that range, I think it is reasonable that an update isn't required under the regs. 

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Just now, EricJ said:

 

For an airplane with gross weight of less than 5000 lbs, a change in weight of less than a pound is considered negligible and doesn't require updating the W&B.   If the difference in weight of a replacement is in that range, I think it is reasonable that an update isn't required under the regs. 

The weight of an accessories only determines if a new W&B is required and not if a change is major, minor or preventative maintenance. Guidance is no change in W&B required for less than 1 lbs indeed

the install of those strobes is an STC (SA800EA) and it does not include the J model (only B C D E F and G). I am not sure many file a 337 !

On the other hand, i don't believe removing power supplies and bolting a new strobes systems is preventative. I will leave it at that.  

 

  

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This is an aircraft alteration anyway you look at it - not changing a bulb. Aircraft alterations are not permitted under preventative maintenance - minor or otherwise. Now once LED’s have been installed with old Whelen power supplies removed and perhaps additional wiring pulled with proper log entries for the mod and new weight and balance filled out - then sure thing an owner could replace a bad LED with a new one of same kind. But that’s the only fair comparison to the spirit of those items listed in the PM list.


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1 hour ago, kortopates said:

This is an aircraft alteration anyway you look at it - not changing a bulb. Aircraft alterations are not permitted under preventative maintenance - minor or otherwise. Now once LED’s have been installed with old Whelen power supplies removed and perhaps additional wiring pulled with proper log entries for the mod and new weight and balance filled out - then sure thing an owner could replace a bad LED with a new one of same kind. But that’s the only fair comparison to the spirit of those items listed in the PM list.


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Paul not often I disagree with you. In my case the tail strobe bulb failed. So clearly I'm going to replace it, and with a new Whelen LED drop-in replacement.  It required bypassing the Whelen power supply, but I left said supply in place to be removed at annual. I documented everything, including updated schematics to detail the (still very trivial) bypass.

1. 43.3(c) and the Coleal interpretation allows for doing things of "comparable ease and non-complexity" to the 31 items in Appendix A.  https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/october/pilot/savvy-aviator-preventive-maintenance

2. From Appendix A it has:

  • (16) Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits. 
  • (17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights.

So, bulb was blown and replaced with a TSO drop-in replacement, in accordance with Whelen's documentation, the power supply was left in place to be removed at annual, and the replacement was documented and signed in the logs.  

Aint no way anyone is going to convince me this is an alteration.  Same will apply should my nav lights blow.  (and I have a feeling that will happen shortly .... )

 

Edited by pwnel
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And it's even more trivial for those of us with enclosed 201-style wingtips without strobes . . .

20200613_114007.thumb.jpg.d1d15ef5e545086955dd34c749fbaf4b.jpg

No new wires, no W&B worries, and "only" an AMU to replace both lights.  :(  But hey, these'uns still work!

Edited by Hank
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2 hours ago, pwnel said:

Aint no way anyone is going to convince me this is an alteration

That's the only part we disagree on. Whether its an alteration has nothing to do with how easy it is or isn't to perform the mod. Heck, I installed an STC'd replacement K&N Air filter in my bird years ago. It too was a drop in replacement. An STC is for a Major Alteration requiring sign-off by an IA, and yes, replacing your Air filter is certainly doable under Preventative Maintenance - but not when you're installing it for the first time as a modification. I had the 337 signed and sent off to OK. Going back back to the LED lights. Whelen certainly never suggested it wasn't a alteration. If so, they wouldn't have given us the approved data to install them under an STC - a major alteration. (although I don't think that many are done filing a 337, but that's another topic).But anything that is a departure from how your bird was certified is a alteration. For it not to be an alteration, the part installed must be in the manufacturers IPC or be a PMA replacement for the part # in the IPC. These lights are not a PMA'd replacement for the original part # - thus its a alteration. Its very simple. You don't have to take my word for it, but I'd suggest calling your local FSDO - those are the folks we have to answer too and I am sure they'll tell you its a minor alteration which your supervising A&P or IA can sign-off on for you.

I am very familiar with the Coleal FAA Interpretation since I work with Mike B.

 

Coleal - (2009) Legal Interpretation - preventative maintenance.pdf

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thanks Paul - yip, including the references here more for the purpose of broader debate as I know you're the expert on it.  But that said, this is the kind of nonsense that makes me want to sell the Mooney and get an RV10 :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, pwnel said:

thanks Paul - yip, including the references here more for the purpose of broader debate as I know you're the expert on it.  But that said, this is the kind of nonsense that makes me want to sell the Mooney and get an RV10 :rolleyes:

Thanks, but I am hardly an expert at it like Mike - he truly is. I certainly understand the sentiment of frustration, but most solve it by forming a relationship with their IA to enable them quite a bit of flexibility at working on their plane under their supervision - then everyone is happy. I personally decided I wanted the education to go with it and went to A&P school at night after my daytime engineering job. FWIW though we've come along ways, when LEDs where new and STC's for them were very incomplete, like the Whelen STC doesn't cover  all Mooney models, we were arguing how the LEDs could still be installed on Mooney models that that STC didn't cover. Without the STC that would mean a field approval (337 major alteration) or an A&P signoff (minor alteration) and early on many, if not most, FSDO's were requiring a field approval; but now most accept these as a minor alteration.  The RV10 is a nice aircraft, but I still appreciate the regulatory requirements, or hurdles to many, of certified aircraft that are aimed at keeping us safe as well as the requirement to be professionally maintained. Of course how we meet those requirements is a whole different matter - merely my opinion.  But I also could never go back to an NA aircraft. 

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