pattern entry

[jetdriven]

the regs did standardize this, left turns unless indicated otherwise.  Aircraft on final have right of way.  It really is that simple. PIC discretion

[John Pleisse]

Airmanship can be defined as:

• 
  
• A sound acquaintance with the principles of flight,
  
• The ability to operate an airplane with competence and precision both on the ground and in the air, and
  
• The exercise of sound judgment that results in optimal operational safety and efficiency
  

Airplane Flying Handbook. U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington D.C.: U.S. Federal Aviation Administration. 2004. pp. 15–7 to 15-8. FAA-8083-3A. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/. 

[jetdriven]

let's define "right of way" per the regs, not per someone's feelings.  Lets hear it

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: N4352H

Simple....whoever is lower, slower, ahead, to your right or disabled (motorized). Overhead break.......time: midnight, place: not that many. Puh-leeze.

[smccray]

Quote: 201er

This is not official by any means but I would like to say right of way priority should be as follows:

1) short final (within normal base leg or closer to runway)

2) base

3) downwind

4) straight in

5) on 45

If someone is flying a 5 mile straight in final and there is someone on base that conflicts, the person on base has already been in the pattern and should continue the landing. Meanwhile the straight inner has the ability to move over to the right (in a left hand pattern), continue on the upwind leg and join pattern on crosswind. If someone on downwind is running in with someone already on downwind, they have room to maneuver or do a 360 to get in behind them. Everyone who is already in the pattern should already be properly spaced to not pose a conflict to each other.

[xftrplt]

"I believe the FARs would say the guy on a straight in/5 mile final would have the right away."

Probably true, but if you're conflicting with a 5 mile final, your base is too wide...or it's a F-104 on final.

[carusoam]

xftr,

Glad you recognized my sense of humour early on, I thought the digitized pictures of the spitfire was enough to recognize some level facetiousness.  I will look to see if I have the Q, I and space bar.  I guess I could hardwire my Ipad to the AP...

The point being, at crowded, untowered airports, it may be best to slow down and enter the pattern so that less experienced people can predict what you are doing.  That would add another minute or so to your overall flight. (50% more time than AOPA used for a full pattern)

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

For the record I used to do a 270 and a 360 overhead break at 170 KIAS in a Cessna 402.  Power off too.   Left turns of course.

[John Pleisse]

Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B--Flight Rules	General

Sec. 91.113

Right-of-way rules

When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

 

Nothing could be more clear.

[carusoam]

Byron,

I suppose the purpose of this maneuver is to get to the ground as quickly as possible from pattern altitude or higher.  You would probably perform this "power-off" to bleed away a significant amount of energy.  (saving time, Fuel, demonstrating command over the aircraft, having fun, practicing engine out ops, all legal, no questions...)

After all of the discussion from JohnGreen and others regarding the danger of steep turns in the pattern and potential for deadly cross controlled stalls, I am interested in whether someone actually chops the power and cranks steep turns to a landing in a Mooney.

Many people fly full slips to a landing in some mooneys.  Steep turns to a landing would not be aeronautically worse than intentional cross controlled (slips) flight...

Anyone...?

Best regards,

-a-

(edited for improved clarity)

[jetdriven]

In the 402 (Beech 1900D as well)  yes it was 60 degrees of bank to G the airplane up and lose some speed.  Gear and flaps, look up and left out the corner of the windshield at the runway, and roll out on a 1/4 mile final.   My minimum airspeed was 100 KIAS but remember a descending turn at 60 degrees is not 2 Gs, so plenty of margin there.

Steep turns I thing are a normal maneuver (not common in the pattern). So is a forward slip, it causes drag to lose altitude. I can't think of a reason for a cross controlled turn.  Airspeed is life.

[Becca]

Quote: jetdriven

let's define "right of way" per the regs, not per someone's feelings.  Lets hear it

 

[MARZ]

"Steep turns to a landing would not be aeronautically worse than intentional cross controlled flight..."

 

I think the key difference here is that the maneuver is a descending steep turn at cruise or slightly lower airspeed?    

Edit - Jetdriven beat me to it.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: carusoam

Many people fly full slips to a landing in some mooneys.

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Becca

But seriosuly, don't let jetdriven troll you into a butter battle over this one.  He's in a hotel room in Ethiopia bored out of his mind, so he wants to stir up some trouble.  At least he didn't try to get a LOP/ROP debate going, right?

[carusoam]

N4352H,

Slips in an M20C (short bodies) were a viable method of losing altitude and speed when I flew one...It was part of cross wind landings also.  the 1965 rudder is so small that a full slip was required to maintain centerline during stiff crosswinds.

I cannot find any comments in the POH regarding them not being recommended.  Clearly "spins are not permitted".  The Cessna 172 POH, for example, states full slips and full flaps, are not allowed.

Full slips in long bodied mooneys are not mentioned in the POH, cross wind landings are to be crab and a "slight wing low sideslip" to touchdown.

I know this is a sensitive issue, can you point me in the direction of the slip being not permitted.  I am unable to put my finger on it in either the M20C POH or the M20R POH.

Medium body Mooneys are not on my list of familiarity...

Best regards,

-a-

[John Pleisse]

Quote: carusoam

N4352H,

Slips in an M20C (short bodies) were a viable method of losing altitude and speed when I flew one...It was part of cross wind landings also.  the 1965 rudder is so small that a full slip was required to maintain centerline during stiff crosswinds.

I cannot find any comments in the POH regarding them not being recommended.  Clearly "spins are not permitted".  The Cessna 172 POH, for example, states full slips and full flaps, are not allowed.

Full slips in long bodied mooneys are not mentioned in the POH, cross wind landings are to be crab and a "slight wing low sideslip" to touchdown.

I know this is a sensitive issue, can you point me in the direction of the slip being not permitted.  I am unable to put my finger on it in either the M20C POH or the M20R POH.

Medium body Mooneys are not on my list of familiarity...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

N4352H,

For many years, I followed the Bob Kromer advice, I was not aware of Trey's articles on the subject. 

Either way, I am a long body guy now with speed brakes, and a good sense of where my airspeed is so slipping is not nearly as critical.

I am surprised to see that I cannot find anything published in the POH in reference to avoiding slips.

So to stay on topic.  I am a boring, follow the long way around, 30 deg of bank, ordinary pattern person, looking to not bump into anyone.  If someone cuts in front of me in the pattern, I may be displeased with their behavior, but my risk has not increased that much, and after all, I fly a mooney and they probably don't.

The worse thing that happens is, I am forced into a go around and it allows me to fly a mooney for about two more minutes.

I am not flying everyday or even alot of days, so I have minimum exposure to the newbie things that can be annoying or unsafe.  I think I have seen someone perform an overhead break twice in a decade of flying.

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

The 172 POH only states "avoid slips with flaps fully extended".  I believe it is also placarded.   I used to teach them because it is not prohibited, and it a useful tool to lose altitude on final. It does have a noticeable pitch oscillation as the elevator is flying in turbulent air.  Still, it is something a 172 pilot should be able to do and understand the mechanics of. It really is no big deal.

I am unaware of any lmitaiton for slips in a medium body Mooney, except the I read somewhere not to slip the airplane with less than 7 gallons on the tank used.  Slips dont seem to add much drag either.

Quote: carusoam

I cannot find any comments in the POH regarding them not being recommended.  Clearly "spins are not permitted".  The Cessna 172 POH, for example, states full slips and full flaps, are not allowed.

Full slips in long bodied mooneys are not mentioned in the POH, cross wind landings are to be crab and a "slight wing low sideslip" to touchdown.

I know this is a sensitive issue, can you point me in the direction of the slip being not permitted.  I am unable to put my finger on it in either the M20C POH or the M20R POH.

Medium body Mooneys are not on my list of familiarity...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

The only mention of slipping that I can find in my book is:

"To preclude fuel starvation, avoid extreme sustained side slips toward the tank in use when that tank contains less than 36 pounds of fuel."

But with proper airspeed control around the pattern, and a nice visual descent, slipping is not necessary, to say nothing of "extreme" slips; before attempting an "extreme sustained side slip" in either direction, I would opt for a go-around. No, I don't frequent one-way fields, but I did drive to see one, once.

[Shadrach]

Good Lord...I hope not. Any Mooney.

 

Why? Is there some unique issue with the airframe that make full slips bad?

-Or-

Is it that your just so d@#n good that your airspeed and glide-path is always dead on???

Quote: carusoam

I am surprised to see that I cannot find anything published in the POH in reference to avoiding slips.

[rob]

I don't have any problems slipping my M20C, though I don't make a habit of it. It's a good tool to have. A go-around isn't a one-size fits all band-aid any more than a slip is. I misjudged the wind during the glide landing on the commercial checkride and put my plane into a full slip to bleed the altitude. The examiner was pleased with my effort and even made a comment that it was the proper decision.

[Hank]

Thus the two adjectives in my Owner's Manual. Slips are fine, sustained slips are OK, extreme slips are good, too--just watch the fuel level if you need a sustained, extreme slip. Like when I was practicing slips as a student:  climb to 3000 agl, point towards something a long way off and slip 1000' in each direction to get a feel for what it's like and how you descend. Losing a couple of hundred on final is not an issue.

[jlunseth]

Well, I am a K pilot.  I read Bob Kromer's articles, but this is the one that put me off doing slips.  http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins2.html

Granted, he was stalling, not slipping, at the time.  But the key to it for me was that he was in a cross controlled condition at low speed, and what is a slip?  A cross controlled condition at final approach speed. 

I think there has been enough test piloting on this issue for me.  K and up, slips are not smart.

Besides, I never have to do a slip to land.  I just throttle back and the aircraft will fall, if I need a little extra I deploy the speedbrakes, but the number of times I have deployed the brakes because I needed to in order to get down and land, I could count on one hand.

[John Pleisse]

http://www.moapilot.com/pdf/Dec02/dec02_pt1.pdf

http://www.donkaye.com/Dons_Homepage/Bob_Krommer_on_Mooney_Slips-Part_2.html

Don Kaye's website is awesome. Can't find Trey's stuff without digging throught the MAPA archives.