Retractable Gear Insurance and Safety

[mark21m20c]

I added a voice alert that says check GEAR if gear is not down and locked if power is below preset value. IT was a low cost ($600) safety add on that can trap a error .She will let you know if the gear is not down. adding another safety barrier is always a good idea. 

 

[ArtVandelay]

For those with Garmin Pilot app, you can add an alert (with audio) and have your own message like “hey dummy, check your gear is down “.

[jetdriven]

10 hours ago, Andy95W said:

The Mooney Mite had a windshield wiper that waved a flag right in front of the pilot's face if the gear was up and the throttle at idle.  People still landed them gear up.

Al Mooney’s  plane from before that was the culver cadet. It had a cool mechanical device that prevented the throttle from being moved below about 1/3rd with the gear up.  When the gear was lowered, the throttle could be pulled to idle. The first one, legend has it, was delivered to orangeburg SC. The factory delivery pilot had some problem with the throttle and couldn’t land.  But he figured it out,  he pulled the mixture on final.   And landed gear up.  

[Hank]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Al Mooney’s  plane from before that was the culver cadet. It had a cool mechanical device that prevented the throttle from being moved below about 1/3rd with the gear up.  When the gear was lowered, the throttle could be pulled to idle. The first one, legend has it, was delivered to orangeburg SC. The factory delivery pilot had some problem with the throttle and couldn’t land.  But he figured it out,  he pulled the mixture on final.   And landed gear up.  

What was it I posted above? Nothing is foolproof??? Sounds like they found a "talented" pilot . . . . .

[Ross Taylor]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

For those with Garmin Pilot app, you can add an alert (with audio) and have your own message like “hey dummy, check your gear is down “.

Yes! How do I set up Pilot audio alerts like this? The alert function is the one part of GP that seems to be behind FF...and I didn’t know I could do this. Thank you!

[ArtVandelay]

Yes! How do I set up Pilot audio alerts like this? The alert function is the one part of GP that seems to be behind FF...and I didn’t know I could do this. Thank you!

Settings, alerts, reminder alerts

[MBDiagMan]

I am a retired engineer.  The vast majority of my career involved controls and automation.  In the course of this experience I learned that no matter how many safeguards are put in place, NOTHING substitutes for the human brain.  All these bullet proof interlocks, alarms, warnings and safeguards can not substitute for the human brain.  Don’t expect all this automation to be a 100% substitute for your own noggin.  If you develop a good habit pattern it will go farther than all the automation you can hang on the airplane.

Since you’re discussing such automation, I assume that it’s not a Johnson Bar plane.  My first Mooney was a Johnson Bar and I would still have it had I not injured my right shoulder.  My current plane is electric gear and I felt more confident of not having a gear up in the Johnson Bar plane.  I developed a habit of giving the bar several tugs after GUMPS.  In the pattern I would tug after turning base again when turning final and still again on short final.  When I had to go to the electric gear plane I converted that habit to looking at the light and if possible looking at the gear window.

One of the biggest shortcomings of automated systems is lack of need for operator knowledge of the system, but more significantly is complacency developed from dependency on the automated controls.  In the case of the gear, there’s is no problem having full understanding of the gear system.  The danger is dependency development.  I sincerely believe that good habit development will give you a much better chance of escaping a gear up than all the automation you could employ.

If you will simply develop the habit of multiple glances after GUMPS and have this burned into your brain it will be better assurance than all the sensors, horns, lights, bells and whistles that you can install without causing the plane to be over gross.

My $0.02,

[Hank]

@MBDiagMan hit the nail on the head.

• Put gear down at the same place every time. 
• I always check the light on base (not possible on all instrument approaches)
• I always check the floor indicator on final
• I often check the light over the runway

[Ross Taylor]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Settings, alerts, reminder alerts

Darn...I was getting really excited about this.  I appreciate the pointer, because I hadn't seen that feature...but there's no option for altitude-based alerts.  It looks like I'd have to create a specific alert for my destination airport, every flight.  Next revision, right? 

[ArtVandelay]

Darn...I was getting really excited about this.  I appreciate the pointer, because I hadn't seen that feature...but there's no option for altitude-based alerts.  It looks like I'd have to create a specific alert for my destination airport, every flight.  Next revision, right? 

No altitude but you can create a location alert (the destination will be filled in when you create a flight plan).

[Ross Taylor]

Thanks @ArtVandelay - I just downloaded and read the most recent GP manual and still didn't realize that's an option.  Their alert descriptions are a bit light.  So, thank you for sharing this - I learned something handy.  While we're here...an alert distance "before" at some distance makes sense...but how does "abeam" work?  I don't see any explanation for these options.

[kortopates]

No altitude but you can create a location alert (the destination will be filled in when you create a flight plan).

Tom, I can hear iPad alerts taxing okay, but in flight I assume they would be barely audible. How well can you hear the alert 2 mi out for landing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

Tom, I can hear iPad alerts taxing okay, but in flight I assume they would be barely audible. How well can you hear the alert 2 mi out for landing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My iPad is connected via Bluetooth to my audio panel, so I hear it just fine except the first 1/2 second is truncated for some reason.

[ArtVandelay]

Thanks [mention=11849]ArtVandelay[/mention] - I just downloaded and read the most recent GP manual and still didn't realize that's an option.  Their alert descriptions are a bit light.  So, thank you for sharing this - I learned something handy.  While we're here...an alert distance "before" at some distance makes sense...but how does "abeam" work?  I don't see any explanation for these options.

I don’t know, I never tried it. This is new, didn’t work right previously. You might have to play with it. The key is you have to have a flight plan.

[Ross Taylor]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t know, I never tried it. This is new, didn’t work right previously. You might have to play with it. The key is you have to have a flight plan.

I plan to play with this - and, again, thanks.  I didn't see this was added.

[PT20J]

I was an instructor in a club at San Jose, CA for years. One of our aircraft in the club's eclectic collection was a 1964 M20C with a johnson bar. I recall it being landed gear up twice.

There is a reason why retractable insurance is more expensive.

Skip

[kortopates]

Not only gear up, but we also have high exposure to prop strikes from more than gear up. Like Skip's comment above. I instruct at a club that used to have a M20K - it had 3 prop strikes in a 1.5 years and then never came back to the club. Pilots that were new to type, not maintaining currency in type, and coming in to fast and not going around when the plane started bouncing. Everybody on Mooneyspace always says their Mooney is easy to land, but only with time in type they become easy to land. And the insurance company's no better, at least with pilots new to type, and set dual requirements and rates accordingly.

The incident records show us gear up landings are pretty evenly divided between Johnson bar and electric gear models. 

[Ibra]

Most of Mooney ops seems private owners, I don’t think there are that many Mooneys as school/rental aircraft with few exceptions? maybe 30 worldwide? how much that weights on insurance premium?

The Arrow in the other hand is a school/rent aircraft, I have been RHS on these, they do take load of hit changing hands but did not hear much prop strikes (light nose?) or gear up (auto extension?) at school environments, however, I do hear a lot about tail strikes, hard landings, flaps/gear over-stress extension, rpm overspeed and these were business as usual...

Edited July 18, 2020 by Ibra

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Ibra said:

Most of Mooney ops seems private owners, I don’t think there are that many Mooneys as school/rental aircraft with few exceptions? maybe 30 worldwide? how much that weights on insurance premium?

The Arrow in the other hand is a school/rent aircraft, I have been RHS on these, they do take load of hit changing hands but did not hear much prop strikes (light nose?) or gear up (auto extension?) at school environments, however, I do hear a lot about tail strikes, hard landings, flaps/gear over-stress extension, rpm overspeed and these were business as usual...

I may have not been clear, we see a lot of Mooney prop strikes with pilots new to type - regardless of renter or owner. Renters just illustrate the point. Perhaps even more true in Europe where many fields make landings so expensive that pilots don't tend to get the landing practice we do here in the US just because of the added expense. That's what I heard from other PPP instructors that went over to Germany to do a PPP a number of years ago.

[MikeOH]

I've debated posting this as I suspect I'm going to be lambasted by the expert cognoscenti denizens...but what the hell, here goes:

I'm not terribly retract experienced, maybe a little over a decade flying Mooneys (rentals and my own), and a little time with rental 182RGs.  So, not a lifetime of no gear ups but, thankfully, I'm still in the "have NOT" group

My policy is to do a GUMPS three times, plus an 'over the fence' gear light check.  First one is mid-field downwind where I TYPICALLY lower the gear, then on base, then on final, then the afore mentioned 'over the fence' check.  Thing is, I'm admittedly a frail human that can be distracted...and, not too proud to admit it has happened.  And, more than once, I've missed at least one of those GUMPS checks, maybe even two if I'm honest.  Thankfully, never all of them.  Without exception they've been due to distractions (traffic, ATC, wife, checking something else, you name it).

Here's the heresy: Given that I accept that I can, and have been, distracted, it is my policy when approaching an airport to land (say within 4-5 miles) and the thought of the gear even enters my mind (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't) I ACT ON IT!  I go ahead and put the gear down right then and there.  Sacrilege not to do it the same way EVERY time, I know.  Here's the thing, how would I feel if I thought about putting the gear down, but said to myself, 'oh, you can't put the gear down HERE because that's not the same place as what your process says'...and then ended up doing a gear-up because I missed all of the 'official' check points?

Flame suit on.

[Hank]

5 miles out, I'm usually still descending, way way above gear speed. 

But I make those same checks, the one on final is the floor indicator. 

[Austintatious]

On 7/18/2020 at 9:36 AM, MBDiagMan said:

I am a retired engineer.  The vast majority of my career involved controls and automation.  In the course of this experience I learned that no matter how many safeguards are put in place, NOTHING substitutes for the human brain.  All these bullet proof interlocks, alarms, warnings and safeguards can not substitute for the human brain.  Don’t expect all this automation to be a 100% substitute for your own noggin.  If you develop a good habit pattern it will go farther than all the automation you can hang on the airplane.

Since you’re discussing such automation, I assume that it’s not a Johnson Bar plane.  My first Mooney was a Johnson Bar and I would still have it had I not injured my right shoulder.  My current plane is electric gear and I felt more confident of not having a gear up in the Johnson Bar plane.  I developed a habit of giving the bar several tugs after GUMPS.  In the pattern I would tug after turning base again when turning final and still again on short final.  When I had to go to the electric gear plane I converted that habit to looking at the light and if possible looking at the gear window.

One of the biggest shortcomings of automated systems is lack of need for operator knowledge of the system, but more significantly is complacency developed from dependency on the automated controls.  In the case of the gear, there’s is no problem having full understanding of the gear system.  The danger is dependency development.  I sincerely believe that good habit development will give you a much better chance of escaping a gear up than all the automation you could employ.

If you will simply develop the habit of multiple glances after GUMPS and have this burned into your brain it will be better assurance than all the sensors, horns, lights, bells and whistles that you can install without causing the plane to be over gross.

My $0.02,

Great post...  I am not an engineer, but I have half a decade experience teaching and training and checking professional pilots in a highly automated aircraft...

What I know, as I am sure you do... is that automation can be a double edged sword as well. Adding automation can be nice, but it can also cause trouble.  The reality is that as you add more and more automation, checklist become even MORE important especially when things are not going right.

Which brings me right back to my 3 solutions

1 checklist

2 checklist

3 checklist!

[mark21m20c]

insurance increase  from 1000 to 1,694 .ouch did not see it coming . Aircraft m20c 90k hull. Aircraft has been refurbished with new or overhauled parts. I am low time mooney pilot but high time pilot . Other pilot has lots of mooney and total time. I added jpi930 cies fuel senders , voice alert for gear and stall. gns 650 . all led lights (landing strobes beacon and nav. both pilot mid 50s and fly around 800 hours a year. We both have atp .

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, mark21m20c said:

insurance increase  from 1000 to 1,694 .ouch did not see it coming . Aircraft m20c 90k hull. Aircraft has been refurbished with new or overhauled parts. I am low time mooney pilot but high time pilot . Other pilot has lots of mooney and total time. I added jpi930 cies fuel senders , voice alert for gear and stall. gns 650 . all led lights (landing strobes beacon and nav. both pilot mid 50s and fly around 800 hours a year. We both have atp .

Yeah that’s about right.  We have another thread about the increases this year.  We have an insurance guy on here that explains what’s going on in the market in that thread.  My $80k hull value did exactly what yours did.  I switched from Global to Republic and saved a few $$.