Aspen Pro EDF 1000 Altitude/VS Preselect

[V1VRV2]

The Ovation Im interested in purchasing came from the factory with a KFC150 AP. The owner later added an Aspen Pro EDF 1000 PFD. It doesn’t appear as if the plane ever had the optional King KAS 297B altitude/vs preselect. If I add the KAS 297B can it be controlled through the Aspen? The Aspen literature says it works with the KFC200. The KFC200 predates the KFC150? Please advise! Much appreciated! 

[alextstone]

Where did you read that...I am asking because I am under the impression that you cannot control these from the Aspen with the KFC150 AP... Only the KFC200 can integrate that way and then only if another third party controller is added to the mix.

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[MIm20c]

Paperwork wise I think it’s only certified for the 200 unit. However, IMO I don’t feel it will work as well as the 297. It doesn’t allow for vertical speed input, it only engages the altitude hold function when the aspen outputs a signal that it has reached altitude. I’m not very familiar with the 150/297 combo but in the 225 it anticipates the level off and makes the transition very smooth. I would think the 297 would be available relatively cheap right now with all the panel upgrades. 

[larryb]

I have an aspen and KAS297/KFC150. There is no talking between the two. But really not a big deal. It is nice having a dedicated unit for quick entry.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

The Ovation Im interested in purchasing came from the factory with a KFC150 AP. The owner later added an Aspen Pro EDF 1000 PFD. It doesn’t appear as if the plane ever had the optional King KAS 297B altitude/vs preselect. If I add the KAS 297B can it be controlled through the Aspen? The Aspen literature says it works with the KFC200. The KFC200 predates the KFC150? Please advise! Much appreciated! 

I have Aspens and a KFC150 with the KAS297B. The 1998 Ovation you're looking at had what Mooney called the Classic Avionics package back then. The Classic Plus had the Altitude Pre-select.

I like the KAS297B, but this far down the road I wouldn't go back and install it if I didn't have it. Avionics have come a long ways since then. To drive it you also need a KEA-130 encoding altimeter which is very expensive to overhaul.  You can set altitude alerts on the Aspen and with the rocker switch on the KFC-150 you can pretty much control your vertical speed. To add all of this and then have your KFC-150 eventually fail would be throwing good money after bad.

Within the next few years we'll have more choices from TruTrak and the Dynon, along with the Garmin GFC500 that's available now. If altitude pre-select is a must now, I'd find an airplane that already has it.

[V1VRV2]

Great insight Lance! I appreciate all the knowledge you and everyone else who have replied to my newb questions have shared. Mooneyspace has amazing members with an incredible knowledge base! Thanks Guys!

[gsxrpilot]

15 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

The Ovation Im interested in purchasing came from the factory with a KFC150 AP. The owner later added an Aspen Pro EDF 1000 PFD. It doesn’t appear as if the plane ever had the optional King KAS 297B altitude/vs preselect. If I add the KAS 297B can it be controlled through the Aspen? The Aspen literature says it works with the KFC200. The KFC200 predates the KFC150? Please advise! Much appreciated! 

No. I have the KAS 297B pre-select and the KFC150 and the Aspen Pro 1000 PFD all in my panel. I can confirm the altitude preselect can not be controlled by the Aspen.

Also the support for the KFC200 is less than you'd expect. It requires an additional module to be installed and all it does is push the altitude hold button for you when you reach altitude. The KAS 297 allows you to a) set a target altitude, and b) select a rate of climb in ft/min. The alt pre-select with the Aspen/KFC200 combo is only a) but not b). 

[carusoam]

If you have memory challenges...

Alt warnings and auto pushing the button can be really helpful...
 

Living in fear of an alt bust while IFR is a bit discomforting... I use a physical memory technique... that’s uncomfortable...

Otherwise adding things on to aging hardware can be less than ideal use of funds...

Alt control and GPSS might fit into this territory...

 

The KFC200 came out before the more digital KAP/KFC150...

with the 150, BK wrote manuals and included what Boxes were compatible and what they did...
 

These things are 20+ years old... their two way communication is really limited...

Money is probably better spent on modern APs for the next 20 years...

 

PP thoughts only, not an instrument tech...

Best regards,

-a-

[Nick Pilotte]

If this isn’t the right place I’ll post a new thread but this is in regard to getting VS preselect in an Ovation with an Aspen display and KFC150.  I know it isn’t possible with a current configuration in the plane V1VRV2 referenced but if adding a GFC500 to an Aspen equipped airplane, you need a G5 or a GI275 to display a flight director correct?  Then you would be able to use a VS preselect, right?  So if looking to add a GFC500, you probably want to bypass an Aspen equipped plane unless you just want displays and control the AP through the Garmin units, right?

[Marauder]

30 minutes ago, Nick Pilotte said:

If this isn’t the right place I’ll post a new thread but this is in regard to getting VS preselect in an Ovation with an Aspen display and KFC150.  I know it isn’t possible with a current configuration in the plane V1VRV2 referenced but if adding a GFC500 to an Aspen equipped airplane, you need a G5 or a GI275 to display a flight director correct?  Then you would be able to use a VS preselect, right?  So if looking to add a GFC500, you probably want to bypass an Aspen equipped plane unless you just want displays and control the AP through the Garmin units, right?

You will need the G5 /275 to support the GFC 500 and you will get altitude pre-select, IAS climbs and digital VS climbs as well as GPSS & the heading bug control. With the G5/275 in the panel, it will become your primary AP controller (along with the GFC 500 control panel) and the Aspen will be relegated to a basic glass display where the heading bug doesn't control the AP nor would you be able to use the GPSS (that would come from the G5/275).  

All that said, I am not sure where Aspen is with integrating the GFC 500 like they did with the STEC 3100. I think you would still need the AHRS from the G5 and if this is the case, then the Aspen becomes non-essential. Which I think is Garmin's strategy anyways.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

You will need the G5 /275 to support the GFC 500 and you will get altitude pre-select, IAS climbs and digital VS climbs as well as GPSS & the heading bug control. With the G5/275 in the panel, it will become your primary AP controller (along with the GFC 500 control panel) and the Aspen will be relegated to a basic glass display where the heading bug doesn't control the AP nor would you be able to use the GPSS (that would come from the G5/275).  

All that said, I am not sure where Aspen is with integrating the GFC 500 like they did with the STEC 3100. I think you would still need the AHRS from the G5 and if this is the case, then the Aspen becomes non-essential. Which I think is Garmin's strategy anyways.

I was talking with Steve Vold at Aerotronics in Billings, MT. They are a huge Garmin shop as well as doing a lot of Aspen and even experimental panels. He said he anticipated Aspen putting the GFC500 on their paper in the near future and thus making it legal. He also said that while the G5 has to be in the panel, everything could be controlled through the Aspen. The G5 provides the Attitude required by the autopilot but the Heading, Course, and possibly vert speed, could all come from the Aspen. 

I was very impressed with Steve's shop there in Billings. They have a huge staff, and several hangars full of airplanes in various stages of avionics work. Lots of beautiful panels coming out of that shop.

[Nick Pilotte]

That’s what I thought.  I really liked the plane in TX that the OP is looking at, but I am looking to integrate a GFC500 in a plane if possible and that sounds like significant work in an Aspen/KFC plane.  I still really like that TX plane.  I hope it passes his muster and he enjoys it. 

[Marauder]

I was talking with Steve Vold at Aerotronics in Billings, MT. They are a huge Garmin shop as well as doing a lot of Aspen and even experimental panels. He said he anticipated Aspen putting the GFC500 on their paper in the near future and thus making it legal. He also said that while the G5 has to be in the panel, everything could be controlled through the Aspen. The G5 provides the Attitude required by the autopilot but the Heading, Course, and possibly vert speed, could all come from the Aspen. 
I was very impressed with Steve's shop there in Billings. They have a huge staff, and several hangars full of airplanes in various stages of avionics work. Lots of beautiful panels coming out of that shop.

I hope they are right Paul. I am not confident that STEC will deliver nor I am willing at this point to consider the STEC 3100 as my next autopilot upgrade.


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[PTK]

On 7/16/2020 at 11:43 AM, Nick Pilotte said:

So if looking to add a GFC500, you probably want to bypass an Aspen equipped plane unless you just want displays

That’s right. A very clear example of how marginalized Aspen remains. An irrelevant spectator.

[mike_elliott]

yawn

[elimansour]

36 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

yawn

LOL!! I still like my Aspen. 

[LANCECASPER]

20 hours ago, PTK said:

That’s right. A very clear example of how marginalized Aspen remains. An irrelevant spectator.

I talked with someone at Aspen on Thursday. With all of the new sales and all of the upgrades they did last year they sold more displays in 2019 than in any year since 2008. 

As usual, it's your highly biased posts that are the only things that are marginalized.

[Cruiser]

On 7/18/2020 at 10:33 AM, PTK said:

That’s right. A very clear example of how marginalized Aspen remains. An irrelevant spectator.

Peter, you are being very childish with this persistence to bash Aspen all the time. 

I feel sorry for you. 

[PTK]

@Cruiser Sir, the observation that was made:

“...if looking to add a GFC500, you probably want to bypass an Aspen equipped plane unless you just want displays and control the AP through the Garmin units...”

is the logical conclusion and one I happen to agree with.
Now if expressing an opinion or, as in this case, consent to something you disagree with, is not allowed and is considered “bashing“ in your book, then I feel sorry for you!

In the spirit of MS I wish you'd reconsider that position! 
 

Edited July 19, 2020 by PTK

[Cruiser]

While Nick Pilotte's comments were constructive in advice and consideration, yours added nothing to the discussion. 

[gsxrpilot]

On 7/18/2020 at 8:33 AM, PTK said:

An irrelevant spectator.

Speaking about yourself? Accurate.

[Pinecone]

 I know this is an older thread, but figured I would ask here

I have a 252 that has an Aspen 1000 PFD and a G5.   It has a KAC-150 Autopilot and a KAS 297.  There is the original altimeter also

The setup works for altitude hold, but not for altitude preselect and capture.  Not can I set a VSI on the -297

It seems that the altitude hold is working off the Aspen.  If at a given altitude, I change the altimeter setting on the altimeter, nothing happens.  I did not try to change the Aspen, I should have.  Or the G5.

Any insight or comments?

 

[Marauder]

 I know this is an older thread, but figured I would ask here
I have a 252 that has an Aspen 1000 PFD and a G5.   It has a KAC-150 Autopilot and a KAS 297.  There is the original altimeter also
The setup works for altitude hold, but not for altitude preselect and capture.  Not can I set a VSI on the -297
It seems that the altitude hold is working off the Aspen.  If at a given altitude, I change the altimeter setting on the altimeter, nothing happens.  I did not try to change the Aspen, I should have.  Or the G5.
Any insight or comments?
 

As far as I know, none of the King stuff is interfaced with the Aspen or the Garmin for controlling the autopilot. The only autopilots that interface with the Aspen are the STEC 55, 3100 (some airplanes), Avidyne’s DFC-90 and now the GFC 600 (Martin Pauly’s Bonanza was the test airplane).

I have the STEC 60-2 and all the AP control is done through the STEC control head. I’m still holding out hope the GFC 500 will be certified. I use the Aspen to enter target altitude and minimums but it doesn’t do anything with the AP.


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[PeteMc]

If you do not already have an Alt Preselect for your Autopilot, you need the Aspen EA100 module (which I think is actually built by a company in Europe).  This basically just triggers the Alt Hold on your Autopilot and does not change the climb/descent rate to "capture" the altitude. 

So if you're climbing at 1,000+ ft/min you'll go right through the altitude and the AP will aggressively bring you back to the preselected altitude.

[LANCECASPER]

Exactly what @Marauder said. When you have a Baro change just click off ALT on your KAP-150 bump the rocker up or down and hit ALT when you're back at the correct altitude.

Altitude pre-select has to be done through the KAS-297B (you should have a KAS-297B not a KAS-297).

On your panel you have three places to change the Altimeter setting: The KEA130 altimeter which is what your pre-select gets its info from, your G5 and your Aspen. You'll still have to adjust your altitude manually, as I mentioned at the beginning, every time you get a new altimeter setting. 

The KFC/KAP 150 Pilot's Guide sort of explains it (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcixf7xlr4ecral/KFC 150 Pilots Guide.pdf?dl=0)