Time for new engine

[201Steve]

7 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The problem is, this. The manufacturers have raised parts prices so much it is difficult for a rebuilder to replace all the things he wants, and come out ahead after figuring his labor. The last O-320 B2B I had rebuilt was a thing of beauty. Pegged main bearings, flow matched, ported and polished cylinders etc. The reality is, after all was said and done I would have been better off just calling Air Power Inc. and buying a Factory Zero Time engine. Cost would have been the same, and there would have been less down time. A Zero Time will provide the best resale value and it is likely you will sell this airplane before the next engine. You also get the added benefit of a roller cam and lifters. Lycoming is the only folks who can put these into a rebuild. Exchange from Airpower is 37K.

Continental is even worse. They raised the prices on parts and lowered the overhaul price of an IO-550 it is impossible for the field shops to come out. A field is about 43, Factory zero is 46 and brand new is only 55!

I used to be a big advocate of field overhauls by a good builder, but now unless you really want some boutique items like flow match cylinders, etc I would go with a factory exchange. Quickest way back to the air, best resale.

 

I keep seeing this here and there, talking about a factory reman being the same price as overhaul, but from what I’m seeing, Jewell will overhaul my io360 for 16,000 and a factory reman from AirPower is $37k. That’s markedly different. What am I missing?

[carusoam]

One thing... factory reman is a specific FAA Set of words that defines Who does and what work is done...

A factory reman for my engine was done by Continental... in their shop, using their people, processes and there are other companies that can do a better job... for a different price...

Sure somebody can duplicate that...

And Of course the FAA can update their terminology...

One would have to ask how AirPower handles that detail... is AirPower a Lycoming company?
 

Or did we substitute the words rebuilt for remanufactured... (surprise!)
 

In the end... you need to read the list of what is included and excluded to know what your money covers...

The FAA has standards to meet for what is called an OH...

So much detail, hard to remember after a while...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[ArtVandelay]

I keep seeing this here and there, talking about a factory reman being the same price as overhaul, but from what I’m seeing, Jewell will overhaul my io360 for 16,000 and a factory reman from AirPower is $37k. That’s markedly different. What am I missing?

The devil is in the details, even between overhauls.

New vs service specs?

Accessories included? New vs overhauled?

There is a lot of variables between what is just considered an overhauled engine.

In the end, you won’t know the quality of the overhaul for ~2000 hours.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I keep seeing this here and there, talking about a factory reman being the same price as overhaul, but from what I’m seeing, Jewell will overhaul my io360 for 16,000 and a factory reman from AirPower is $37k. That’s markedly different. What am I missing?

You have to question what you get for your dollars.  New cylinders are $2000 each, that half of Jewell’s price and you haven’t bought a new cam and lifter set, new bearings, new connecting rods and nuts, overhauled fuel injection system, new or overhauled magnetos, new or overhauled starter, new fuel pump, pay the labour and make a profit to cover future warranty issues.

At the same time Lycoming charges more than the price of a new car and their paint will start falling off in 5 years.  Lycoming is the only one who can update your engine to roller valve lifters.  If your engine already has roller lifters it can be overhauled in the field and keep the roller lifters.

Search for Lycoming SB 240, it lists the minimum parts replacement to qualify as an Overhaul.

Clarence

[EricJ]

12 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I keep seeing this here and there, talking about a factory reman being the same price as overhaul, but from what I’m seeing, Jewell will overhaul my io360 for 16,000 and a factory reman from AirPower is $37k. That’s markedly different. What am I missing?

Rebuild (sometimes called reman?) is a different standard than an overhaul.   Rebuilds are built to new tolerances, overhauls are built to service/overhaul tolerances, which are looser.   A rebuild/reman gets reset to 0 time and has no previous logbook or maintenance history.   An overhaul does not, only 0 TSMOH, the Total Time still accumulates and the previous maintenance history still applies.   I think the engine in my airplane has something like 4000 hours on it.

Be careful, as "remanufacture" isn't really a regulatory term and may or may not mean "rebuilt".

AC 43-11 has useful related info on the terminology and specifics, but for the most part the difference in price may reflect the difference in standards of the build.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-11_CHG-1.pdf

 

[ArtVandelay]

Rebuild (sometimes called reman?) is a different standard than an overhaul.   Rebuilds are built to new tolerances, overhauls are built to service/overhaul tolerances, which are looser. [/url]
 

Some engine shops overhaul to new tolerances. More expensive of course, may require new parts.

[toto]

The rebuild vs reman distinction is very interesting, and I wonder how many aircraft owners understand the difference.  There is definitely a warm fuzzy to getting a brand-new engine log, but I suspect that a lot of owners are paying more for perceived value beyond the logbook. 

This reminds me of the Mike Busch piece on the "zero-time" moniker for factory remanufactured engines (see below).  This piece predates the FAA circular, and Busch mixes the "rebuild" vs "reman" terms, so I wonder if this no longer applies to the current FAA guidance.  The AC clearly says that if you're going to give an engine a new logbook, it needs to be overhauled to "rebuild" standards.

 

Lie #10: A factory reman is better than a field overhaul, because only the factory offers a true "zero-timed" engine.

While it’s true that a factory rebuilt engine comes with a zero-time logbook while a field overhauled engine does not, it’s not for the reason you may think.

When you have your engine overhauled by Mattituck, RAM, T.W. Smith, Victor, or whomever, that engine retains most of its original parts, as well as its serial number, data plate, and engine logbook or other maintenance records. The overhauled engine you get back is legally the same engine you sent in, all cleaned up with lots of new parts.

On the other hand, when TCM or Lycoming receives a runout core from a customer, that engine loses its identity. The data plate is removed and destroyed. So are the logbooks.The case halves are cleaned up, inspected, and added to a big pile of reusable case halves. The crankshaft is cleaned up, inspected, and added to a big stack of reusable cranks. The same is true of camshafts, rods, accessory gears, and so forth. Those reusable parts become "anonymous" because they’re no longer associated with any particular engine serial number.

Now, when TCM or Lycoming builds up a factory rebuilt engine (colloquially but incorrectly referred to as a "factory reman"), it pulls some"anonymous" case halves from one pile, an "anonymous" crankshaft from another pile, and so forth. When the engine is completely assembled, it gets a new data plate, a new serial number, and a new logbook.

The logbook starts out at zero time-in-service. Why zero? Because there’s no other reasonable figure to put in the logbook. The case halves are certainly not zero-time, but there’s no record of how much time they’ve accrued. The crankshaft may not be new, but there’s no record of how much time is on the crank, either. And so on.

In short, the "zero-time" logbook that comes with a factory rebuilt engine in no way implies that the engine is "newer" or "better" than a field overhaul. All it implies is that the reused components in the engine are of unknown heritage…nobody knows how long they were in service prior to the time then were cleaned up, inspected, and reused in your engine!

[EricJ]

30 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Some engine shops overhaul to new tolerances. More expensive of course, may require new parts.

That should definitely be part of the discussion when selecting options!   Not knowing what standard the shop is using could be troublesome later.   I'd expect any shop using new/rebuild tolerances would be costing more than a field overhaul to overhaul specs.

BTW, only the factory or factory designates can rebuild to zero time.   A shop overhauling to new specs can't call it "rebuilt" or reset time to zero without factory authorization.

[kortopates]

As confusing as the meaning of the term "overhaul' is here to owners, so is the reference to "Jewell" a popular overhauler.

Turns out that Jewell Aviation (Kennett, MO - https://www.jewellaviation.com) is not a Part 145 Repair Station or even a corporation or LLC, but is apparently a sole A&P (Sam Jewell). It is ***NOT*** the same as John Jewell Aircraft in Holly Springs, MS (http://www.johnjewellaircraft.com) which is a top-notch engine shop and a Part 145 Repair Station. Very easy to confuse the two, they are NOT the same! 

[Rwsavory]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

As confusing as the meaning of the term "overhaul' is here to owners, so is the reference to "Jewell" a popular overhauler.

Turns out that Jewell Aviation (Kennett, MO - https://www.jewellaviation.com) is not a Part 145 Repair Station or even a corporation or LLC, but is apparently a sole A&P (Sam Jewell). It is ***NOT*** the same as John Jewell Aircraft in Holly Springs, MS (http://www.johnjewellaircraft.com) which is a top-notch engine shop and a Part 145 Repair Station. Very easy to confuse the two, they are NOT the same! 

Jewell in Kennett, Missouri has been doing most of the maintenance on our Mooney for the past 8 years.  Sam Jewell and his son David are both A&P IA's.  They have a busy engine shop and, from all accounts I have heard, do an excellent job with overhauls.  To call them simply a "sole A&P"  is a bit unfair, IMHO.

[Vno]

On 7/12/2020 at 1:10 PM, bbakerco said:

Also, a Turbo Normalizer was installed in 08 (1200hrs) from M20TurboKits out of FL which doesn't appear to be in business any longer.  But they used a Rotomaster turbo and scavange pump and Rotomaster is here in PHX area so I'm going to check into getting that rebuilt.

 

I have the same setup in my J. When I broke the turbo casing, I sent out for an overhaul/exchange from Main Turbo Systems in CA. Very pleasant to deal with. My Turbo is a common RayJay so it was easy to get repaired.

If your engine was/is running well I would lean towards overhaul from a reputable shop. There are plenty of them out there. Mine was done by Signature Engines in LUK. An additional teardown for a prop strike was done by Zephyr Engines in FL. There are more shops around. 600/400 hours later the same engine is running well.

Brian

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

Jewell in Kennett, Missouri has been doing most of the maintenance on our Mooney for the past 8 years.  Sam Jewell and his son David are both A&P IA's.  They have a busy engine shop and, from all accounts I have heard, do an excellent job with overhauls.  To call them simply a "sole A&P"  is a bit unfair, IMHO.

My point is that the two Jewell business are two different entities and operate out of two different states. Just saying "Jewell" no one aware knows which business is being referred too. "Jewell Aviation" operates using their A&P certs while the other "Jewell Aircraft" in MS operates as a FAA Part 145 Repair Station. Outside of MooneySpace the latter has an excellent reputation as an engine shop. Within Mooneyspace Jewell Aviation is known for their very competitive labor pricing on overhauls and even annuals and has many satisfied MSer's. But their business doesn't operate at the same FAA standards as the other Jewell Aircraft which is a nationally recognized engine shop.

Another MSer corrected me via PM that Jewell Aviation operates as Corporation under the state of MO https://bsd.sos.mo.gov/e-commerce/company/search/270820

Not trying to ruffle feathers here but address the confusion since I was originally confused by mention of just Jewell myself. When people add their kudos for "Jewell" in past threads, I was one example that said Jewell had high marks and added that Mike B. had used them for one of his engine overhauls - but that was for Jewel Aircraft the repair station.  I know I am not the only confused one at the mention of Jewell alone.

[Mark89114]

I have been trying to stop in Kennet MO on my last two trips westbound from Virginia to Fort Smith AR....Gas was $2.69 a gallon I believe, weather had different plans.

I realize this adds nothing to the discussion of engine overhauls.

 

[Jim Peace]

On 7/12/2020 at 1:35 PM, Mark89114 said:

I think i would find a new MSC if tbat is what i was told.

I have scratched three off my list so far...... 2 east coast one west coast.......

[GeeBee]

First, is terms.

Is a field O/H better than a factory zero time? Depends on the tolerances used.. O/H to new tolerances with new factory cylinders? Yes the field O/H is better. I guarantee you that 16K quote is not to new tolerances.

Second is how this engine is used. The poster said he flies only 5 hours a month. That means corrosion is a distinct possibility. So a roller cam would be a high priority as it is less susceptible but not entirely free over a traditional cam. He can only get a roller cam with a Factory zero time.

Third. At 5 hours per month he is likely to dispose of the airplane before the engine term is up, so resale enters into the equation

Fourth. He wants minimal down time. Minimal down time and field overhaul are not synonymous terms.

Fifth. Warranty? Remember just a year ago Lycoming had a batch of bad rocker bushings on the IO-540? Now Lycoming gave new bushings to all the people who bought those. But only people who purchased Lycoming zero times were covered for parts and LABOR and labor was 99% of the cost. People who had field O/H were at the mercy of their shops.

Sixth. Resale: We have already established this airplane will be sold in the future. Imagine this airplane with an identical cousin being compared by a first time buyer (there are a lot of those on these very pages). He has a "zero time factory engine" and the other has a field to new tolerances by a highly reputable shop. Which airplane will the WIFE pull out the checkbook and write? To the knowledgable purchaser you and I know makes no difference. To the wife with a first time buyer? Simply put the airplane with a factory zero time will move faster.

Simply. put, based upon the conditions laid down by the OP, the factory engine is the only way to go.

 

 

[Greg Ellis]

55 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

 

Second is how this engine is used. The poster said he flies only 5 hours a month. That means corrosion is a distinct possibility. So a roller cam would be a high priority as it is less susceptible but not entirely free over a traditional cam. He can only get a roller cam with a Factory zero time.

Third. At 5 hours per month he is likely to dispose of the airplane before the engine term is up, so resale enters into the equation

 

The original poster flies 15 hours per month, not 5 hours.

[GeeBee]

My error. Still I think he would benefit from a roller cam even at 15 hours.

 

 

 

 

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

First, is terms.

Is a field O/H better than a factory zero time? Depends on the tolerances used.. O/H to new tolerances with new factory cylinders? Yes the field O/H is better. I guarantee you that 16K quote is not to new tolerances.

Second is how this engine is used. The poster said he flies only 5 hours a month. That means corrosion is a distinct possibility. So a roller cam would be a high priority as it is less susceptible but not entirely free over a traditional cam. He can only get a roller cam with a Factory zero time.

Third. At 5 hours per month he is likely to dispose of the airplane before the engine term is up, so resale enters into the equation

Fourth. He wants minimal down time. Minimal down time and field overhaul are not synonymous terms.

Fifth. Warranty? Remember just a year ago Lycoming had a batch of bad rocker bushings on the IO-540? Now Lycoming gave new bushings to all the people who bought those. But only people who purchased Lycoming zero times were covered for parts and LABOR and labor was 99% of the cost. People who had field O/H were at the mercy of their shops.

Sixth. Resale: We have already established this airplane will be sold in the future. Imagine this airplane with an identical cousin being compared by a first time buyer (there are a lot of those on these very pages). He has a "zero time factory engine" and the other has a field to new tolerances by a highly reputable shop. Which airplane will the WIFE pull out the checkbook and write? To the knowledgable purchaser you and I know makes no difference. To the wife with a first time buyer? Simply put the airplane with a factory zero time will move faster.

Simply. put, based upon the conditions laid down by the OP, the factory engine is the only way to go.

 

 

But some specialty shops like Western Skyways balance their engines better than Lycoming specs.  That means a smoother running engine with less stress on everything and everybody.

[cujet]

I'm a big fan of properly accomplished field overhauls. Using the existing crankshaft without prop strike history... Owners can source engine parts themselves and then hire a capable A+P or local engine shop to do the work. Years ago, I was able to get a 10% discount for a bulk order of engine parts. Worked out really well and they even honored one bad connecting rod bolt that refused to stretch. Here is my IO360 while I was performing the field overhaul. 

 

 

Also, I wanted to give a "thumbs up" to Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa. I had them build an engine for me and I visited their shop during the build. They really did take the time to install properly flowed and matched set of cylinders, Alan showed me just how poorly balanced the crank was,  and balanced the crankshaft properly right in front of me! YIKES!!! Today, I finished the annual inspection on the Extra 300L with that engine. It's a fire breathing monster that is amazingly smooth and an absolute pleasure to fly. In fact, that BPE engine in the red Extra was so much better than the original Lyc in our yellow Extra 300L, that we ended up selling the yellow plane. 

 

 

 

 

[GeeBee]

My field O/H O-320 B2B turned up 173hp on the dyne (rated 160). I also paid 27K for the engine alone. As I said, I am a fan but....quick, good, cheap. Choose two.

 

[201Steve]

On 7/14/2020 at 12:55 PM, GeeBee said:

My error. Still I think he would benefit from a roller cam even at 15 hours.

 

 

 

 

Haven’t the diamond faced tappets been a very good alternative at a much cheaper cost?

[ArtVandelay]

Haven’t the diamond faced tappets been a very good alternative at a much cheaper cost?

According to the engine shop, Lycoming wouldn’t have gone to rollers if they had DLC.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

According to the engine shop, Lycoming wouldn’t have gone to rollers if they had DLC.

Cam and lifter problems began back in the mid 70’s with the O-320 H2AD engine in the C172, it’s only taken Lycoming 40 odd years to find a solution.  Ah progress.

Clarence

[GeeBee]

You are correct, Lycoming cannot design a valve train TSTA. The H2AD problems were not corrosion problems. I know. I dead sticked 3 of them. The push rods exploded out the tubes, one even went through the cowling.  The issue with other Lycoming engines is corrosion.. While a roller cam is not a panacea to corrosion, it is less susceptible. Mercury Marine knows this fact too which is why their premium engines, based on GM blocks are rollers both for corrosion and performance reasons. 

That all said, IMHO Lycoming is very bad about sticking the customer with parts they knew for a long time were bad. I use the IO-540 rocker arm bushings as an example. They knew for over a year they were bad, but kept shipping them to engine shops. Then they say, "Oh let's make a. SB and an AD. They walk down the hall to their FAA rep and get it done and you get stuck with the bill with absolutely no allowance for labor IF you did not have the engine work done by them. 

[0TreeLemur]

On 7/13/2020 at 4:45 PM, Mark89114 said:

I have been trying to stop in Kennet MO on my last two trips westbound from Virginia to Fort Smith AR....Gas was $2.69 a gallon I believe, weather had different plans.

I realize this adds nothing to the discussion of engine overhauls.

 

I flew up there two months ago just to buy 100LL at a price I hadn't seen since the '80s.  Also to color Missouri in on my states landed in placemat.