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Engine out on takeoff at 400'


robert7467

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six years ago today, at 2:00 PM eastern time, it happened to me. Never made it to 400', 150 was about all we got. I still hurt.

Get the door opened. I did, and was fortunate that Bobby Forsythe, ran into a burning plane and could pull my unconscious butt out. He knew right where to go because of the door opened.

RIP Bill Gilliland...

Im so glad your engine issue didnt end up like this.

GEDC0003.JPG

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Yeah, I did pop the door open. I just went out there this morning and sumped the tanks in case I got bad fuel. There was no water in the system. My hypothesis is: over the course of 5 years, the plan has ran, and sat. Over time, the carb drains, then I refill it to start, then over time the bowl drains (vapor). Eventually goo built up, then fresh fuel goes in and it broke all that stuff up. Or maybe some sealant broke off. I will know more next week when the mechanic looks at it.

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18 minutes ago, robert7467 said:

Yeah, I did pop the door open. I just went out there this morning and sumped the tanks in case I got bad fuel. There was no water in the system. My hypothesis is: over the course of 5 years, the plan has ran, and sat. Over time, the carb drains, then I refill it to start, then over time the bowl drains (vapor). Eventually goo built up, then fresh fuel goes in and it broke all that stuff up. Or maybe some sealant broke off. I will know more next week when the mechanic looks at it.

We’re you able to run the engine after the incident?

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Just now, Rwsavory said:

We’re you able to run the engine after the incident?

Yeah it was fine, but when I suddenly pushed the power, then it would start hickuping. The old timers at the airport are confident it's a carb issue.

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4 minutes ago, robert7467 said:

Yeah it was fine, but when I suddenly pushed the power, then it would start hickuping. The old timers at the airport are confident it's a carb issue.

When you did the ground run up with the power pushed in, did you cycle thru both mags?  I know it's basic, but a bad mag/wire/plug on L or R can look fine at idle.  One reason why I would do a full power mag check enroute.

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1 minute ago, neilpilot said:

When you did the ground run up with the power pushed in, did you cycle thru both mags?  I know it's basic, but a bad mag/wire/plug on L or R can look fine at idle.  One reason why I would do a full power mag check enroute.

Yes.... did several runups in the past 3 weeks. Then yesterday gave the bird a thorough inspection. 

Prior to departure, I did a runup and cycled the prop. Takeoff was fine.

Upon the 2nd departure, something didn't quite feel right, so I did a full stop, went back to the runup area and did a full mag check, then high RPM runup to knock off any cobwebs, did a 2nd mag check and everything checked out fine.

The 3rd departure is when I had engine failure. There was no power. I pulled the headset off my ear so I could hear the engine and it was rough and knocking. Then I pulled the power, opened the door and told ATC that I was aborting the landing, then I set her down.

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18 minutes ago, robert7467 said:

Upon the 2nd departure, something didn't quite feel right

Dont ever ignore this again until you know for sure what caused that "feeling". It came close to killing you. If something doesnt feel right most likely it isnt vs you were just imagining things. Your Mark I sphincter guage is highly accurate at times, especially the G's or lack thereof. 

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1 minute ago, mike_elliott said:

Dont ever ignore this again until you know for sure what caused that "feeling". It came close to killing you. If something doesnt feel right most likely it isnt vs you were just imagining things. Your Mark I sphincter guage is highly accurate at times, especially the G's or lack thereof. 

I agree, but sometimes things are different under different conditions. I thought it was just density altitude causing it to be a little sluggish, which is why I did that second runup and burn off. Everything checked out perfectly. A plane taking off in cooler weather is going to have slightly different characteristics than one in hot weather and that's what I was thinking, but gut feeling something wasn't 100% which is why I verified everything with that second runup.

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1 hour ago, robert7467 said:

Upon the 2nd departure, something didn't quite feel right, so I did a full stop, went back to the runup area and did a full mag check, then high RPM runup to knock off any cobwebs, did a 2nd mag check and everything checked out fine.

Yes, but did you check each mag at the high RMP setting?

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5 hours ago, ToddCC22 said:

AOPA ePilot  just had an article on “ The Impossible Turn” that was an engine failure at 450’. Guy made it back to the departing runway to land. Lucky for him, he was in a Mooney. I don’t think most other planes would have made it. 
https://click.mail.aopa.org/?qs=c8a6d98f0208fe44f9d332373767138b66da5f9f407685949550268ee6de315dab980be6c849d3546c95f7920ee8b1dac5e2891d8335a255

 

in hind sight, I think a left turn to the other runway would have been a safer chance, but he made it. 

I made the 180 after an engine failure in a j-3 at about 400’. It certain does depend on the plane. Wouldn’t do it in a Plautus. 
 

-Robert

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I'm not sure that I have ever suggested this before, but it might be a case where a high speed taxi or two is a good idea. After aborting takeoff #2 and seeing a good second runup, you could exercise various power settings on the 6000 foot runway without rotating. 

I think I'm in the camp that would say "if it doesn't feel right, put it to bed and call the mechanic," but a high speed taxi could tell you a lot about how a third takeoff roll would feel - with minimal risk of an emergency. If the high speed taxi still feels wrong, call it a day. 

(I'm definitely not judging here - just throwing out an idea. You're safe and the airplane isn't bent - that's the best possible outcome under the circumstances.)

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30 minutes ago, toto said:

I'm not sure that I have ever suggested this before, but it might be a case where a high speed taxi or two is a good idea. After aborting takeoff #2 and seeing a good second runup, you could exercise various power settings on the 6000 foot runway without rotating. 

I think I'm in the camp that would say "if it doesn't feel right, put it to bed and call the mechanic," but a high speed taxi could tell you a lot about how a third takeoff roll would feel - with minimal risk of an emergency. If the high speed taxi still feels wrong, call it a day. 

(I'm definitely not judging here - just throwing out an idea. You're safe and the airplane isn't bent - that's the best possible outcome under the circumstances.)

Yeah, thanks for the advice. Right now she is grounded until she gets checked out next week.

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6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

six years ago today, at 2:00 PM eastern time, it happened to me. Never made it to 400', 150 was about all we got. I still hurt.

Get the door opened. I did, and was fortunate that Bobby Forsythe, ran into a burning plane and could pull my unconscious butt out. He knew right where to go because of the door opened.

RIP Bill Gilliland...

Im so glad your engine issue didnt end up like this.

GEDC0003.JPG

Hallelujah!!! Congratulations Mike. I recall meeting you Mooney Summit 2014.  You were making a remarkable recovery!

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I cut a very thin line of pink tape and applied it to my airspeed indicator at minimum maneuvering speed, which is clean stall power off at 40 degrees bank.   It’s about 80 in my F model at gross.   Check performance limitations in your POH.  This way, in the event of an engine failure on takeoff, I just need to keep speed above that line while maneuvering to an LZ.  It’s one of those air speeds that I consider as important as blue or red line for ME SEO.

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11 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

six years ago today, at 2:00 PM eastern time, it happened to me. Never made it to 400', 150 was about all we got. I still hurt.

Get the door opened. I did, and was fortunate that Bobby Forsythe, ran into a burning plane and could pull my unconscious butt out. He knew right where to go because of the door opened.

RIP Bill Gilliland...

Im so glad your engine issue didnt end up like this.

What an impact Mike. So glad you are still here and with us to talk about it.

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nice job....thanks for the report....

Most of the time,,,,,(not all),,,,,these engines seem to give hints of things not being right....just happened to me in the last month....I knew my plane was not right after my 10,000 MSC annual.  Had oil dripping on my nose gear from day one after the annual,....my mechanic dismissed it as oil from the breather....turns out it was from a very loose oil line that almost detached and was certainly chaffing.....I posted video in another thread.

If we all want to be cheap bastards, I am one,  and drive around lawn mowers with wings then we have to at least spend money and time making the engine 100% safe....interior or paint do not matter.....show me a plane with great engine mx and a good clean fuel delivery system and a late model engine monitor,,,now you are talking.....monoxide detector of course too.....

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

nice job....thanks for the report....

Most of the time,,,,,(not all),,,,,these engines seem to give hints of things not being right....just happened to me in the last month....I knew my plane was not right after my 10,000 MSC annual.  Had oil dripping on my nose gear from day one after the annual,....my mechanic dismissed it as oil from the breather....turns out it was from a very loose oil line that almost detached and was certainly chaffing.....I posted video in another thread.

If we all want to be cheap bastards, I am one,  and drive around lawn mowers with wings then we have to at least spend money and time making the engine 100% safe....interior or paint do not matter.....show me a plane with great engine mx and a good clean fuel delivery system and a late model engine monitor,,,now you are talking.....monoxide detector of course too.....

 

 

Those oil return tubes can drop a lot of oil quick. I had an oil leak that I spent months trying to find, then all hell broke loose. Luckily I caught it in a preflight. The tube was chaffing at the return tube bend where it was rubbing against a baffle. Now as a part of my routine inspections I follow each tube to make sure they are not rubbing against anything. 

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20 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I made the 180 after an engine failure in a j-3 at about 400’. It certain does depend on the plane. Wouldn’t do it in a Plautus. 
 

-Robert

Why?  I have done hundreds of turn backs in PC-12s.  500' AGL is all that is required, 800' AGL is required if flying at waivered MGW in a draggy modified version of the plane.

I'm less excited about doing it in my Mooney.

 

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From a glider pilot and someone who has had an engine failure at about 400 feet resulting in a crash in a meridian...

Whenever possible I offset my upwind leg to the downwind side of the runway.  I do this by making a 10-20 degree turn towards the downwind side of the runway and climbing on that  heading until I am about 700 feet offset, then turn back to runway heading.  Should the engine fail,  this puts me in a position to make only a 180  (@45 degree bank which is optimum for a 180 with minimal altitude loss during the turn)  descending turn to land on the reciprocal runway. 

 

If you are on the runway center line, you have to make about a 200-230 degree turn one way, then another turn in the opposite direction to line back up with the runway.

 

That's just me.

 

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3 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

From a glider pilot and someone who has had an engine failure at about 400 feet resulting in a crash in a meridian...

Whenever possible I offset my upwind leg to the downwind side of the runway.  I do this by making a 10-20 degree turn towards the downwind side of the runway and climbing on that  heading until I am about 700 feet offset, then turn back to runway heading.  Should the engine fail,  this puts me in a position to make only a 180  (@45 degree bank which is optimum for a 180 with minimal altitude loss during the turn)  descending turn to land on the reciprocal runway. 

 

If you are on the runway center line, you have to make about a 200-230 degree turn one way, then another turn in the opposite direction to line back up with the runway.

 

That's just me.

 

I like this!  Tell me why I shouldn’t!!!

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11 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

I like this!  Tell me why I shouldn’t!!!


Add to the discussion...


who else is in the pattern with you...

and what other straight ahead or less challenging fields are available...

 

+1 For getting off the centerline.

+1 For the video posted above.  Each turn uses up so much energy...
 

+1 for stay fast while flying and turning... Stall horn on is not fast...

+1 for going slow while landing...

Invite @chrixxer to the conversation...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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My new instructor (he is not doing my IFR, just helping me with advanced techniques) also does aerobatics and glider. I am going to go on some aerobatic lessons. I am thinking some aerobatic time and some time in a glider will go a long way. 

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