Surefly in Bravo

[Davidv]

My apologies if this has been covered yet but has anyone put a surefly in their Bravo yet?  When I was at Maxwell a few months ago Paul mentioned they either had done some installs (or were planning to, I can't remember).  Just interested in your feedback if you've put one in.  In one of the other threads there was some discussion about high altitude ops and whether it would be an issue in general turbos...

Edited June 30, 2020 by Davidv

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

My apologies if this has been covered yet but has anyone put a surefly in their Bravo yet?  When I was at Maxwell a few months ago Paul mentioned they either had done some installs (or were planning to, I can't remember).  Just interested in your feedback if you've put one in.  In one of the other threads there was some discussion about high altitude ops and whether it would be an issue in general turbos...

I've been following Surefly and Electroair for the Bravo. The Surefly is limited to fixed timing on Turbo engines at the moment. Electroair is way more complicated and a much longer install time. I don't think either of them are quite there yet.

[Davidv]

9 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I've been following Surefly and Electroair for the Bravo. The Surefly is limited to fixed timing on Turbo engines at the moment. Electroair is way more complicated and a much longer install time. I don't think either of them are quite there yet.

Thanks, I'm not familiar with the fixed vs. variable timing aspect.  What implications would that have for our engines?  Even though it was certified for our plane I assume this means there will be some drawbacks.

Apologies for the remedial knowledge on this subject...

Edited June 30, 2020 by Davidv

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, Davidv said:

Thanks, I'm not familiar with the fixed vs. variable timing aspect.  What implications would that have for our engines?  Even though it was certified for our plane I assume this means there will be some drawbacks.

Apologies for the remedial knowledge on this subject...

Their homepage says : 

 

"Most fixed-wing single engine aircraft can enable SureFly's advanced timing feature for improved cruise flight efficiency. Many other aircraft will be able to use the advanced timing feature as the FAA extends SureFly's Airframe STC AML."

 

and then later :

 

Intelligent Timing Advance

For non-turbocharged engines, SureFly controls spark advance up to 38º before TDC as determined by manifold pressure and RPM (engine power setting). Each engine's base timing advance is read off the data plate and set into the SureFly Ignition Module or, "SIM" at installation.   The timing advance schedule is hard set at the factory,  when the SIM is manufactured, to provide the highest possible combustion efficiency.

 

 

 

[PaulM]

There used to be graphs of the MP where the advanced timing kicked in, and they are only useful for NA engines.   Ones with a turbo will always be above the knee of the curve (except for landing) 

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/33364-thoughts-on-surefly-mag-replacement-for-turbo/?tab=comments#comment-566592

 

Looks like I found 24.5" of MP before it started retarding spark.   And the failure mode isn't kind, so they won't let you take the risk. 

[philiplane]

It is doubtful you will see spark advance approved for turbo engines, without an automated detonation detection & control system integrated to the ignition. The only way it could happen is for the EI STC holder to run their system on each candidate engine, in a test cell, under the conditions that the FAA imposed for original engine certification. To prove that the EI will not harm the engine under worst case conditions. $$$,$$$ per engine model. 

[alextstone]

2 hours ago, philiplane said:

It is doubtful you will see spark advance approved for turbo engines, without an automated detonation detection & control system integrated to the ignition. The only way it could happen is for the EI STC holder to run their system on each candidate engine, in a test cell, under the conditions that the FAA imposed for original engine certification. To prove that the EI will not harm the engine under worst case conditions. $$$,$$$ per engine model. 

@philiplane...so does this limitation of no spark advance for turbos override any other benefits one might derive from installing one on a Bravo engine?

[carusoam]

Let’s invite @aviatoreb and see if he has some SureFly experience in a near similar engine from another motha... (Continental)

Expect that variable timing won’t make sense unless you take to flying your TC’d bird like an NA bird...

The spark advance is really interesting when power is limited... not very interesting at high power settings...

The electronic mag is exciting even if you retain the original timing... the more powerful spark is showing interesting data... so far...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

A year ago at Sun N Fun I had a good discussion with Darrell Pool who distributes the ElectroAir product. He said they had helped a Bravo owner in Maryland (?) through the installation process and the owner really liked the results (much smoother running, easier starts, LOP, etc.). You might call  Darrell and talk with him if you want more information.