Incremental Panel Upgrade

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Greg_D said:

On the advice of some, I took a look at the G500 TXi.  Nice system.  I'm wondering if there would be a way to just install a single 7" screen version and have that drive the KFC-150 until I am ready to pull that out and then go with the GFC-500.  I can't see pricing anywhere for that, so it must no be a popular option.  What else would I need to add to make the 7" version work for me?

The 7 inch system with AHRS and the air data computer is around $10.5k before the $500 rebate. You will also need a gad 43 or 43e (which requires a software unlock). I can sell you a new gad43 for $500 if you go that direction.  

[Greg_D]

Just now, MIm20c said:

The 7 inch system with AHRS and the air data computer is around $10.5k before the $500 rebate. You will also need a gad 43 or 43e (which requires a software unlock). I can sell you a new gad43 for $500 if you go that direction.  

What's the difference between the 43 and 43e?

 

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, Greg_D said:

What's the difference between the 43 and 43e?

 

The 43e has a small e after the 43, just kidding. 

"Like the GAD 43, the GAD 43e can enable AHRS digital altitude/heading reference with selected autopilots in place of costly-to-maintain ADI gyro indicators. The GAD 43e can also interface to analog VOR/LOC/GS receivers, and functions as an altitude preselector and vertical speed controller when interfaced with compatible autopilots. It will even enable the display of marker beacon lamps, DME distance, synchro ADF bearing and analog radar altitude on your G500/600. These new interface capabilities work to reduce the workload of the pilot."  https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/62760

[Oldguy]

13 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Now where did you learn to talk like that?1 :-)

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was a nuclear engineering major with deep interest in quantum mechanics. Required mucho math/calculus and other foreign languages. Gave it up for something simpler like writing O/S code for B1 Orange Book systems.

[MIm20c]

8 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

What's the difference between the 43 and 43e?

 

Lance did a great job of explaining it. Bottom line if your main navigator is a gns or gtn...you will need to keep your old cdi for nav 2 and the 297 for altitude preselect. Cost difference is around $3.5k. 

[aviatoreb]

58 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was a nuclear engineering major with deep interest in quantum mechanics. Required mucho math/calculus and other foreign languages. Gave it up for something simpler like writing O/S code for B1 Orange Book systems.

Hah - I resemble that remark.

A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I was a math major with a deep interest also in quantum and also I took a lot of computer classes.  Ah if you went into computers then - you are probably making lots more money than me.  I am now just a math geek.  :-)  I was at the right place at the right time with the right skills - but the "wrong" attitude - I graduated from Berkeley undergrad in 1990 - right next door to early silicon valley, with the right skills math and also I was doing all sorts of internships in computers and I was best of all my friends at anything computer large and small, and clearly that was a good time to get in on the ground floor in something start up there in the valley...but my attitude and some of my friends - we wanted to learn about the universe and how it worked rather than the products and things of man - meh - its been a good ride.  I still haven't figured out how the universe works but I have learned a bit more and its been (and still is) a great ride.

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Hah - I resemble that remark.

There needs to be a place serving adult beverages where we meet so we can continue this discussion. Sounds extremely interesting. Let me know if you get down to SNF or the Mooney Summit next year. I'll buy the first round.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Oldguy said:

There needs to be a place serving adult beverages where we meet so we can continue this discussion. Sounds extremely interesting. Let me know if you get down to SNF or the Mooney Summit next year. I'll buy the first round.

I would like that!  Alabama?  Up until just a few years ago I had a contract that brought me down to Hunstville occasionally. But no work excuse as of right now. One of these days?

I wish Mooney Summit were not squarely usually in the middle of what for me is my high time at work.  Being a Prof I can't really go on not-work trips during the semesters.  I do hope to attend someday!

E

[MIm20c]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

I wish Mooney Summit were not squarely usually in the middle of what for me is my high time at work.  Being a Prof I can't really go on not-work trips during the semesters.  I do hope to attend someday!

E

Have your TA earn his keep and slip away for a day

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Have your TA earn his keep and slip away for a day

I know...I know.  Only I never wanted to be THAT guy...who has a job but does a crappy job.

[Oldguy]

17 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I know...I know.  Only I never wanted to be THAT guy...who has a job but does a crappy job.

No, be the guy who trains his staff well enough they can do the work today they aspire to do in the future.

There. That sounds better than just dumping it on them. 

[laytonl]

On 6/30/2020 at 2:14 PM, Greg_D said:

I have a functioning KFC-150 autopilot in a 1994 Mooney Ovation.  I am looking at upgrading the system in an incremental fashion, starting with removing the KI-256 and KI-525.  Since I am looking at keeping the King autopilot in for the time being, what are my options and costs for upgrading the instrumentation 1st and then switching to a GFC 500 down the road?  The two options I've come to so far are installing a pair of GI-275s or getting the Aspen E5 Evolution.  Both options should allow me to remove the vacuum system.  Two issues I see with both of these systems:  the GI275s don't work with the GFC 500 (yet) and the Aspens won't work at all and likely never will.  A GFC 500 install at a later date, with the Aspen in the panel would also require a G-5 to be installed as I understand it.

Another question that I can't find an answer for is regarding the altitude preselect.  Does the Aspen or the GI-275 solution eliminate the need for a KAS-297 altitude preselect?  

I am not looking to make a new panel or extensively modify what's currently there, so the TXi and G3touch options aren't on the table.  That said, it there another option I may have overlooked that won't require panel cutting and will get to were I need/want to go?  I haven't mentioned the KI-300, but would be interested to hear thoughts on that if anyone has seen one in the wild.

Thanks!

Greg, I’ve been struggling with the same issue.  My plan is to run the kap150 until it dies and then install a gfc500.  I decided to take an interim step and install a 7” G3X to replace the ki-525.  I’m leaving the ki-256 to drive the kap150 and as a backup AI.  When the ki256 dies I will replace the kap150 with the gfc500.  The G3X is being installed now.  Lee

[Greg_D]

1 hour ago, laytonl said:

Greg, I’ve been struggling with the same issue.  My plan is to run the kap150 until it dies and then install a gfc500.  I decided to take an interim step and install a 7” G3X to replace the ki-525.  I’m leaving the ki-256 to drive the kap150 and as a backup AI.  When the ki256 dies I will replace the kap150 with the gfc500.  The G3X is being installed now.  Lee

I’ve wondered about that 7” G3X.  I think it’s plenty big enough for a Mooney.  Certainly more screen than 2 G5’s or 275s.  Are you going to use the G5 as a backup once the BK stuff is gone?  I’m guess the 7” G3X will drive the KFC 150 in the interim, but the box that goes between them is crazy expensive.  Please post pictures when complete or as it’s being worked on!

[MIm20c]

10 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

I’ve wondered about that 7” G3X.  I think it’s plenty big enough for a Mooney.  Certainly more screen than 2 G5’s or 275s.  Are you going to use the G5 as a backup once the BK stuff is gone?  I’m guess the 7” G3X will drive the KFC 150 in the interim, but the box that goes between them is crazy expensive.  Please post pictures when complete or as it’s being worked on!

The g3x will provide lateral information to the kfc but not attitude info. You need to keep the vac system and the 256 AI or install a 275 / txi+gad43 interface. 

[laytonl]

Once my ki-256 dies I will install the Garmin autopilot and then add an Aerovonics S-30.  I have an Aerovonics S-20 in my Citabria and it’s a great little product.  Lee

[Greg_D]

On 7/3/2020 at 10:25 PM, MIm20c said:

The g3x will provide lateral information to the kfc but not attitude info. You need to keep the vac system and the 256 AI or install a 275 / txi+gad43 interface. 

I heard rumors for a few years that Garmin was going to allow the G5s to drive the older King APs.  That's probably not going to happen now that the GI275s are out.  I wish that Garmin would release a basic version of the 275s, without all of the bells and whistles, that could function as a basic flight director and HSI.  I really don't want synthetic vision, a moving map, traffic, weather, etc, on my attitude source or HSI.  Some might, so they could add the ability to add that later on via a software upgrade.

[spaz]

I need incremental upgrades and I went with dual GI275 to drive the century 2000 autopilot.  No more vacuum and I gained an HSI from a DG.  The plan would be to incrementally upgrade to the GFC 500 when the century dies.  Then I can gain a yaw damper too.  The G5 not driving my functional gpss and altitude preselect enabled legacy autopilot put G5 off the table.  The goal was to remove the vacuum gyros which failed me right when the GI 275 came out.  The Synthetic vision is a nice toy, but it provides a Velocity vector also, but you can’t just get the velocity vector.  The moving map is ok but I prefer the HSI for approaches, the map being good for airspace and ADS-B weather.  I kept the airspeed, altitude and VSI only because I’m comfortable with those displays.  I could have removed them all and ran off of the 275s alone.  I did give up GPSS as a stand-alone and moved to the 275 but it isn’t a very good User Interface to swap modes.
I am overall very happy with it and it is truly an incremental upgrade. I hope this helps.

Before 

. 

After

[rbridges]

37 minutes ago, spaz said:

I need incremental upgrades and I went with dual GI275 to drive the century 2000 autopilot.  No more vacuum and I gained an HSI from a DG.  The plan would be to incrementally upgrade to the GFC 500 when the century dies.  Then I can gain a yaw damper too.  The G5 not driving my functional gpss and altitude preselect enabled legacy autopilot put G5 off the table.  The goal was to remove the vacuum gyros which failed me right when the GI 275 came out.  The Synthetic vision is a nice toy, but it provides a Velocity vector also, but you can’t just get the velocity vector.  The moving map is ok but I prefer the HSI for approaches, the map being good for airspace and ADS-B weather.  I kept the airspeed, altitude and VSI only because I’m comfortable with those displays.  I could have removed them all and ran off of the 275s alone.  I did give up GPSS as a stand-alone and moved to the 275 but it isn’t a very good User Interface to swap modes.
I am overall very happy with it and it is truly an incremental upgrade. I hope this helps.

Before 

. 

After

 

Nice. Even after installing my second Aspen panel, I still used the old ASI.  Just changing the scan took time.  

[Greg_D]

Spaz, how much did that setup cost out the door, including labor?  And where did you get the work done?

[gun986]

14 hours ago, spaz said:

I need incremental upgrades and I went with dual GI275 to drive the century 2000 autopilot.  No more vacuum and I gained an HSI from a DG.  The plan would be to incrementally upgrade to the GFC 500 when the century dies.  Then I can gain a yaw damper too.  The G5 not driving my functional gpss and altitude preselect enabled legacy autopilot put G5 off the table.  The goal was to remove the vacuum gyros which failed me right when the GI 275 came out.  The Synthetic vision is a nice toy, but it provides a Velocity vector also, but you can’t just get the velocity vector.  The moving map is ok but I prefer the HSI for approaches, the map being good for airspace and ADS-B weather.  I kept the airspeed, altitude and VSI only because I’m comfortable with those displays.  I could have removed them all and ran off of the 275s alone.  I did give up GPSS as a stand-alone and moved to the 275 but it isn’t a very good User Interface to swap modes.
I am overall very happy with it and it is truly an incremental upgrade. I hope this helps.

 

Looks good!  How does changing from NAV to Heading mode workout?  I've seen somewhere that it's a bit clunky.  I'm about to have 2x of the 275's installed in my Ovation.

[spaz]

Looks good!  How does changing from NAV to Heading mode workout?  I've seen somewhere that it's a bit clunky.  I'm about to have 2x of the 275's installed in my Ovation.

The nav HDG to GPSS is a long press to bring up the menu, and two buttons, Options then HDG mode. I believe that Garmin had received feedback from the community and will enable a discrete to this function for panel button control.

It's a bit clunky but if you didn't have GPSS before it will really make a change to how you use the autopilot. I've had a century GPSS that this replaced which was right above the altitude Preselect control head. So I really noticed the clunkyness but I'm getting used to it after about 10 hrs of IFR.

One thing for your install is to make sure they use the VFR GPS antenna to calibrate the magnetometer. It is a SW bug that it will not calibrate using external GPS feeds like from my 430W. That took a few weeks to resolve, and I think Garmin has added it to the technical instructions for installers. It isn't a problem if you add the extra glare shield antenna.



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[spaz]

Spaz, how much did that setup cost out the door, including labor?  And where did you get the work done?

I had the work done by Advanced Aerotech in Greeley, CO. They have a shop in Florida as well as a few others. It was 50 hrs labor and 15AMU out the door after I added on the USB port which is overpriced but nice to have. There was a few first time problems to calibrate the magnetometer but they did not pass through the extra costs to me, which is a nice thing, some other odds and ends that they really took good care of me. I can say I have found my avionics shop, finally.



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[MIm20c]

I’d be really curious what the delta would be between a dual G5 / GFC500 3 servo system and a dual 275 legacy AI interface setup. Anyone have a fly away price difference between the two using/bidding the same shop? $5-6k?

[PTK]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I’d be really curious what the delta would be between a dual G5 / GFC500 3 servo system and a dual 275 legacy AI interface setup. Anyone have a fly away price difference between the two using/bidding the same shop? $5-6k?

I’ve been quoted 12400$ on the low end to just under 15K$ on the high end for dual GI275‘s and removing vacuum. I would imagine the GFC500 with 2 G5’s should be at most ~18K installed?

[Greg_D]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

I’ve been quoted 12400$ on the low end to just under 15K$ on the high end for dual GI275‘s and removing vacuum. I would imagine the GFC500 with 2 G5’s should be at most ~18K installed?

I was quoted $21K for a dual G5/GFC 500 setup on an Ovation.  The dual GI275/GFC setup was $5K more.