Incremental Panel Upgrade

[Greg_D]

I have a functioning KFC-150 autopilot in a 1994 Mooney Ovation.  I am looking at upgrading the system in an incremental fashion, starting with removing the KI-256 and KI-525.  Since I am looking at keeping the King autopilot in for the time being, what are my options and costs for upgrading the instrumentation 1st and then switching to a GFC 500 down the road?  The two options I've come to so far are installing a pair of GI-275s or getting the Aspen E5 Evolution.  Both options should allow me to remove the vacuum system.  Two issues I see with both of these systems:  the GI275s don't work with the GFC 500 (yet) and the Aspens won't work at all and likely never will.  A GFC 500 install at a later date, with the Aspen in the panel would also require a G-5 to be installed as I understand it.

Another question that I can't find an answer for is regarding the altitude preselect.  Does the Aspen or the GI-275 solution eliminate the need for a KAS-297 altitude preselect?  

I am not looking to make a new panel or extensively modify what's currently there, so the TXi and G3touch options aren't on the table.  That said, it there another option I may have overlooked that won't require panel cutting and will get to were I need/want to go?  I haven't mentioned the KI-300, but would be interested to hear thoughts on that if anyone has seen one in the wild.

Thanks!

[StevenL757]

I did mine in two phases, and should get my airplane back in about a week from phase 2.  Because I have a perfectly good KFC150 autopilot, I'm holding off doing a GFC500 or the KFC230.  Ultimately, I want the GFC600, but it will likely never be certified for the Ovation platform.  Ultimately, I'll run the KFC150 until it fails, then make a decision from there.  My shop is onboard.

Why not look at the G500Txi?  Although the G3x Touch will work in your airplane, you're very limited as to what will interface with it in the future.  Granted you'll spend a bit more on the Txi, but it will play with just about anything...particularly the GFC500.  Here's a list of limitations for both platforms for consideration...compiled by, and pulled from this site:

Things present on the G500TXi that are NOT on the G3X Touch

• Twin engine support
• Pilot/Copilot PFD installations
• HSI map
• More modern hardware and a nicer screen.  Display technology is rapidly evolving, and the G3X Touch is already 5 years old
• Additional third-party I/O.  They showed only the GAD29B as an option here, not the GAD43e, so the interfacing options of the G3X Touch are similar to the G5 rather than similar to the TXi
• Database Concierge feature
• Remote audio panel support
• Non-Garmin attitude-based autopilot support
• 3rd-party NAV radio support on the on-screen HSI
• Airborne weather radar support (not datalink, but actual radar like the BendixKing RDR-2000 and Garmin GWX series)
• Support for the GDL69A, GDL88, and GSR56 datalinks
• Many more display configurations - Only four are certified on the G3X Touch, while something like 28 are certified on the TXi
• Realtime EIS data streaming through FS510 to an iPad

Things present on the G3X Touch but not the G500TXi

• Direct support of the GFC500.  In a G3X + G5 + GFC500 installation, losing the G5 will not take down the autopilot.  In a TXi + G5 + GFC500 install, losing the G5 takes down the autopilot
• More numeric values displayed on the EIS

[rbridges]

I've already gone down the Aspen road, so doing Garmin panels probably ain't happening.  What does everyone think about trutrak?  Like @StevenL757, I have a functioning AP so I'm not in a hurry, but being an STEC 50, I'd probably go digital if it got to be a pain to maintain.

I have seen some of the grumblings on Beechtalk about the Aspen/trutrak integration, but I'm hoping it will get ironed out in the next year.

Edited June 30, 2020 by rbridges

[MIm20c]

The aspen and 275 do not control the altitude preselect function. Only the gad43e (txi) with software unlock will allow that.  The aspen will also require the 130a to remain functional. 

[Oldguy]

I am still holding out hope the KFC 230 (AeroCruze 230) will show up with integration to the Aspen panels.  I know it is currently available for our planes IFF (for @aviatoreb) you have either the legacy King instrumentation or the KI 300 and 310 replacements. The Aspen integration is supposed to remove the KEA 130 and KAS 297B requirements for the KFC 230, but according to what @alextstone posted he was told by BK, that is not likely to happen in 2020.

Right now my panel is getting to look a little Franken-panely with the two Aspens, the KAS 297, the EDM, and everything else. While I would love to cut a new panel and clean up what I have, I cannot see doing it only to have to cut another one again WHEN the 230 is released with Aspen integration.

[Greg_D]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

I did mine in two phases, and should get my airplane back in about a week from phase 2.  Because I have a perfectly good KFC150 autopilot, I'm holding off doing a GFC500 or the KFC230.  Ultimately, I want the GFC600, but it will likely never be certified for the Ovation platform.  Ultimately, I'll run the KFC150 until it fails, then make a decision from there.  My shop is onboard.

Why not look at the G500Txi?  Although the G3x Touch will work in your airplane, you're very limited as to what will interface with it in the future.  Granted you'll spend a bit more on the Txi, but it will play with just about anything...particularly the GFC500.  Here's a list of limitations for both platforms for consideration...compiled by, and pulled from this site:

Things present on the G500TXi that are NOT on the G3X Touch

• Twin engine support
• Pilot/Copilot PFD installations
• HSI map
• More modern hardware and a nicer screen.  Display technology is rapidly evolving, and the G3X Touch is already 5 years old
• Additional third-party I/O.  They showed only the GAD29B as an option here, not the GAD43e, so the interfacing options of the G3X Touch are similar to the G5 rather than similar to the TXi
• Database Concierge feature
• Remote audio panel support
• Non-Garmin attitude-based autopilot support
• 3rd-party NAV radio support on the on-screen HSI
• Airborne weather radar support (not datalink, but actual radar like the BendixKing RDR-2000 and Garmin GWX series)
• Support for the GDL69A, GDL88, and GSR56 datalinks
• Many more display configurations - Only four are certified on the G3X Touch, while something like 28 are certified on the TXi
• Realtime EIS data streaming through FS510 to an iPad

Things present on the G3X Touch but not the G500TXi

• Direct support of the GFC500.  In a G3X + G5 + GFC500 installation, losing the G5 will not take down the autopilot.  In a TXi + G5 + GFC500 install, losing the G5 takes down the autopilot
• More numeric values displayed on the EIS

Sounds great, but in my original post I said I wasn't interested in cutting a new panel and therefore the TXi and G3touch were not being considered.

[Greg_D]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

I've already gone down the Aspen road, so doing Garmin panels probably ain't happening.  What does everyone think about trutrak?  Like @StevenL757, I have a functioning AP so I'm not in a hurry, but being an STEC 50, I'd probably go digital if it got to be a pain to maintain.

I have seen some of the grumblings on Beechtalk about the Aspen/trutrak integration, but I'm hoping it will get ironed out in the next year.

I don't think TruTrack has a flight director or provides anything close to the capability currently offered by a KFC-150.  I am trying to keep the same level of performance when it's all said and done.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Oldguy said:

I am still holding out hope the KFC 230 (AeroCruze 230) will show up with integration to the Aspen panels.  I know it is currently available for our planes IFF (for @aviatoreb) you have either the legacy King instrumentation or the KI 300 and 310 replacements. The Aspen integration is supposed to remove the KEA 130 and KAS 297B requirements for the KFC 230, but according to what @alextstone posted he was told by BK, that is not likely to happen in 2020.

Right now my panel is getting to look a little Franken-panely with the two Aspens, the KAS 297, the EDM, and everything else. While I would love to cut a new panel and clean up what I have, I cannot see doing it only to have to cut another one again WHEN the 230 is released with Aspen integration.

You pinged me!

Actually - I made a decision at the beginning of the month that has pushed me away from the GFC500.  There was a deal on an aspen system that was too good to turn down - or anyway I have been hemming and hawing on what I might want to do for several years no, and then therefore doing nothing.  Soon my airplane will be supporting a efd1000 with synthetic vision and driving my kfc200 for the time being until I decide what else I might want to do.  That's a nice system right there, so I decided I am not going to pull out my perfectly good working kfc200 for the time being, and I did just last year overhaul some of the kfc200.  So for the time being it will be a single aspen unit, the kfc200 and just run er as she is. And I will likely replace with something from whatever is available if the kfc200 starts costing more money in the future.

Trutrek?  aerocruze 230?  Or I hear rumor that eventually aspen will talk to a GFC500 (rumor I heard is that 1 g5 driving the gfc500 plus the hsi feature of the aspen driving the heading )...whatever.  We shall see.

I was just again looking at aerocruze 230 and I see it has a straight and level feature as I remember.  But I thought I remembered it had an envelope protection mode too (like the ESP of the gfc500) but now I don't see it.  Was I remembering wrong? 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm on this same journey and like @Oldguy and @rbridges, I'm part way along and there isn't a definitive final solution today.

The best new autopilot available for Mooneys today is the Garmin GFC500. But being Garmin, there's not really an incremental path to get there. 

The options are dual G5's, G3X, G500TXi. All of these will support the GFC500. But of these options, the only one that will work with the KFC150 seems to be the G3X. So you really have to go all in and do the whole thing at the same time. And as you said, the big screen G3X or G500TXi isn't really an option as it requires a full new panel.

If you go Aspen, the integration with the KFC150 is excellent, except there isn't any Altitude pre/select or replacement for the KAS-297. And then there isn't likely a path to the GFC500. 

If the AeroCruz from BK learns to speak Aspen, it might be a good solution. Except that there aren't really any in the wild so we don't know how good it actually is.

I was recently in Billings, MT and spent some time at Aerotronics on the field there. The boss, Steve Vold, told me that if Aspen will add the GFC500 as an approved autopilot, they will make it work. He seemed to think that was a real possibility. He was on the phone with Aspen while I was there. 

At the moment I'm pretty happy with my Aspen PFD, still retaining the KAS-297 for altitude pre-select, Avidyne IFD540, and taking orders from all the above, the KFC150. I'm hoping there is a solution before the inevitable demise of the KFC150.

[Oldguy]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I was just again looking at aerocruze 230 and I see it has a straight and level feature as I remember.  But I thought I remembered it had an envelope protection mode too (like the ESP of the gfc500) but now I don't see it.  Was I remembering wrong? 

I can see where it has the LVL function, but I do not recall reading about a function similar to the ESP capability of the GFC 500.

Also, I figured you would get the IFF statement...

[Greg_D]

25 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm on this same journey and like @Oldguy and @rbridges, I'm part way along and there isn't a definitive final solution today.

The best new autopilot available for Mooneys today is the Garmin GFC500. But being Garmin, there's not really an incremental path to get there. 

The options are dual G5's, G3X, G500TXi. All of these will support the GFC500. But of these options, the only one that will work with the KFC150 seems to be the G3X. So you really have to go all in and do the whole thing at the same time. And as you said, the big screen G3X or G500TXi isn't really an option as it requires a full new panel.

If you go Aspen, the integration with the KFC150 is excellent, except there isn't any Altitude pre/select or replacement for the KAS-297. And then there isn't likely a path to the GFC500. 

If the AeroCruz from BK learns to speak Aspen, it might be a good solution. Except that there aren't really any in the wild so we don't know how good it actually is.

I was recently in Billings, MT and spent some time at Aerotronics on the field there. The boss, Steve Vold, told me that if Aspen will add the GFC500 as an approved autopilot, they will make it work. He seemed to think that was a real possibility. He was on the phone with Aspen while I was there. 

At the moment I'm pretty happy with my Aspen PFD, still retaining the KAS-297 for altitude pre-select, Avidyne IFD540, and taking orders from all the above, the KFC150. I'm hoping there is a solution before the inevitable demise of the KFC150.

There's a guy over on BeechTalk who did something like I'm talking about, but wound up having to put a G5 in to talk to the GFC 500 since the Aspens won't do it.  Seems like quite a bit of extra cash.  Of course, if they ever get the Aspens to work with the GFC-500, the decision would be easy.  Even easier would be if Garmin would make something to allow the G5s to work with the KFC-150!  I'd be all over that right now, and then switch to the GFC-500 down the road a little!!!

Edited June 30, 2020 by Greg_D

[MIm20c]

Just now, Greg_D said:

There's a guy over on BeechTalk who did something like I'm talking about, but wound up having to put a G5 in to talk to the GFC 500 since the Aspens won't do it.  Seems like quite a bit of extra cash.  Of course, if they ever get the Aspens to work with the GFC-500, the decision would be easy.  Even easier would be if Garmin would make something to allow the G5s to work with the KFC-150!  I'd be all over that right now, and then switch to the GFC-500 down the road a little!!!

Just put in a single 275 with AP interface in. You can drop the vac system (and backup) and have a stable AI to feed the system. If the future it could provide a backup for a txi/g3x or another 275.  Garmin already makes 4 different options for your panel right now. Don’t wast time dreaming for a interface that might never happen...

[Greg_D]

Just now, MIm20c said:

Just put in a single 275 with AP interface in. You can drop the vac system (and backup) and have a stable AI to feed the system. If the future it could provide a backup for a txi/g3x or another 275.  Garmin already makes 4 different options for your panel right now. Don’t wast time dreaming for a interface that might never happen...

How am I going to drop the vacuum system with a single 275?  I thought those had to be installed as a pair or with a different electronic AI in order to eliminate the vac system...

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, Greg_D said:

Sounds great, but in my original post I said I wasn't interested in cutting a new panel and therefore the TXi and G3touch were not being considered.

Thanks for clarifying, sorry...I misread “aren’t on the table” for “are”.

Honestly tho...if you’re looking to put significant money into this upgrade, the panel cut is a tiny spend.  My shop billed me around $500 for a new panel complete with powder coat and silk screening.

[Greg_D]

19 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Thanks for clarifying, sorry...I misread “aren’t on the table” for “are”.

Honestly tho...if you’re looking to put significant money into this upgrade, the panel cut is a tiny spend.  My shop billed me around $500 for a new panel complete with powder coat and silk screening.

It's not the actual cost of cutting the panel that worries me.  I've done those before.  I just don't think there is a way to upgrade incrementally when going that route.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

 But being Garmin, there's not really an incremental path to get there. 

 

Sure there is.

Step 1: get your money together

Step 2: send it to Garmin

See?  Incremental.

[MIm20c]

22 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

It's not the actual cost of cutting the panel that worries me.  I've done those before.  I just don't think there is a way to upgrade incrementally when going that route.

IMO the money spent for a g3x/275 or txi/g5 combo is a great “investment” in your ovation. Both will allow a final panel to be made/installed, will work with your current AP, and will be fully compatible with a future gfc500 upgrade. 

[201Mooniac]

4 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Things present on the G500TXi that are NOT on the G3X Touch

• Twin engine support
• Pilot/Copilot PFD installations
• HSI map
• More modern hardware and a nicer screen.  Display technology is rapidly evolving, and the G3X Touch is already 5 years old
• Additional third-party I/O.  They showed only the GAD29B as an option here, not the GAD43e, so the interfacing options of the G3X Touch are similar to the G5 rather than similar to the TXi
• Database Concierge feature
• Remote audio panel support
• Non-Garmin attitude-based autopilot support
• 3rd-party NAV radio support on the on-screen HSI
• Airborne weather radar support (not datalink, but actual radar like the BendixKing RDR-2000 and Garmin GWX series)
• Support for the GDL69A, GDL88, and GSR56 datalinks
• Many more display configurations - Only four are certified on the G3X Touch, while something like 28 are certified on the TXi
• Realtime EIS data streaming through FS510 to an iPad

Things present on the G3X Touch but not the G500TXi

• Direct support of the GFC500.  In a G3X + G5 + GFC500 installation, losing the G5 will not take down the autopilot.  In a TXi + G5 + GFC500 install, losing the G5 takes down the autopilot
• More numeric values displayed on the EIS

As far as I know, the TXi does not support remote audio panels.  I believe the only connection from the TXi to the audio panel is to play alerts from the TXi.

[201Mooniac]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

The options are dual G5's, G3X, G500TXi. All of these will support the GFC500. But of these options, the only one that will work with the KFC150 seems to be the G3X. So you really have to go all in and do the whole thing at the same time. And as you said, the big screen G3X or G500TXi isn't really an option as it requires a full new panel.

I believe the only one of the G5, G3x, and G500TXi that will work with the KFC150 is the G500TXi, not the G3x.  The GI275 will also work with the KFC150.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Oldguy said:

I can see where it has the LVL function, but I do not recall reading about a function similar to the ESP capability of the GFC 500.

Also, I figured you would get the IFF statement...

Well yeah - of course - if and only if.  Well said and thrifty which is why we made if and only iff into a macro.  Now where did you learn to talk like that?1 :-)

Darn - I figure envelope protection is THE main safety improvement associated with a digital autopilot.  Without it I would be less excited to think of buying.  Trutrek has overbook protection which is a less thorough version of envelop protection since I presume that gfc500 is doing its esp based on computed angle of attack.  Where bank protection is just that - envelope protecting absolute bank but not what you really want which is angle of attack that also includes pitch and speed as implicit variables.  They should include it.

E

Edited July 1, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Yetti]

I am doing the Dynon in phases.  First phase was 15K which got Engine monitoring, back up flight instruments. VFR GPS mapping, ADSB, integrated VHF coms.  6K more and I will have Autopilot and primary flight instruments.  Dynon is saying Autopilot by end of year.  I am saying mid next year.

[rbridges]

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

I am doing the Dynon in phases.  First phase was 15K which got Engine monitoring, back up flight instruments. VFR GPS mapping, ADSB, integrated VHF coms.  6K more and I will have Autopilot and primary flight instruments.  Dynon is saying Autopilot by end of year.  I am saying mid next year.

Didn't you do a lot of your own labor for the install?  Or was 15K having the shop do it?

[Greg_D]

On the advice of some, I took a look at the G500 TXi.  Nice system.  I'm wondering if there would be a way to just install a single 7" screen version and have that drive the KFC-150 until I am ready to pull that out and then go with the GFC-500.  I can't see pricing anywhere for that, so it must no be a popular option.  What else would I need to add to make the 7" version work for me?

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

On the advice of some, I took a look at the G500 TXi.  Nice system.  I'm wondering if there would be a way to just install a single 7" screen version and have that drive the KFC-150 until I am ready to pull that out and then go with the GFC-500.  I can't see pricing anywhere for that, so it must no be a popular option.  What else would I need to add to make the 7" version work for me?

Yes, @201Mooniac is correct. The G500TXi will work with the KFC150. @Bryan had that combination in his Encore. I think he had the single 10" screen. Here is his panel.

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

Didn't you do a lot of your own labor for the install?  Or was 15K having the shop do it?

Dynon has a program for Individual IAs to be able to install systems.   Under the IAs guidance and direct supervision, I did complete most of the work.   Interesting to note, the IA caught that the manual did not say if engine instruments could be replaced.  And the PIN out on the VHF radio are wrong.   Dynon is expecting those to be fixed in the next manual.   There was nothing hard about the install.  Just time consuming.  But I was making serial cables back in 1990.   I purchased some cables, but made the majority of them.  It was nice because I prewired for the Servos and the Big Screen to replace the primary 6 pack.