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Help me pick! Need advice


GMike

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Hey guys. New to the forum, but a long time Mooney admirer who's just about ready to enter the world of Mooney ownership. Need some help thinking about which plane to buy. I have two broad questions:

1: Would you prefer a high TTAF plane (say 6000 hours) that has a low to mid time engine (say 500 to 1000 SMOH) and no current squawks and needs no avionics upgrades, or would you pick a lower TT plane (say 2000 or 3000 hours) that has a mid time engine but has no modern GPS and has ancient radios? I guess at the root of this question I'm wondering is a high TT a deal breaker for most of you?

2nd broad question: If you were just stepping into the Mooney world and have never owned a complex, would you suggest avoiding a turbocharged plane for the first purchase?

Background: I got my PPL a little over a year ago. I'm tired of flying rental and club planes and ready to buy my first plane. I've always loved Mooneys since seeing them around airports as a kid when flying with my dad. I feel a Mooney fits my mission (usually solo or +one, longer cross countries, sometimes in high elevation terrain). Most of my flying has been in 172's and 152's so far. I feel stepping up to a complex is an appropriate stretch of skills at this point. I've been looking at F's and J's primarily, but have entertained the idea of a K 231 since being turbocharged would help in the mountains and some K's come in under my target price of $100k for a first plane.  A J is my current preference, with an F that's been taken care of and has the speed mods is a close second. But, should I be open to the K 231? Drawbacks with that are the K is it seems just a little more to master as far as needing more attention to cautious and effective engine management to keep from needing early engine work--maybe that's not much to an experienced Mooney pilot, but it's a little extra and I'm already going to be getting use to the "extra" of a complex. The Continental engine has the lower TBO of 1800 and from what I read doesn't usually surpass that number nearly as often as the Lycoming does. The overhaul on the Continental appears much more expensive as well. It's a more capable plane---faster, higher ceiling, better at high DA, but also more costly as far as more frequent overhauls and more expensive when it does need it, and more "sensitive" as far as potential for damaging the engine if I don't know what I'm doing with respect to power settings. Knowing that I've been flying non-turbo and non-complex planes so far, would you advise staying away from the K or am I overthinking this? Also, I'm not thinking this is my "forever plane" yet. I plan to get my IFR next, and want to do that in my own plane and not the local rental plane. In the future I might upgrade to a more capable plane. That's why I was thinking F or J now, then maybe a TLS Bravo or fancier shmancier later on. I think I'm developing "analysis paralysis" now... Help me sort it out? Am I looking at this the right way?

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I recommend buying condition over total time.   6000tt is a plane that has been flown regularly over the past 60 years..       if it’s been taken care of properly, then it should be fine.   If not, then some things could be worn beyond limits..    most of the value in these planes is the engine.

the different models are good for different missions.   If you live and frequent high density elevations or generally fly out west, then turbo is probably what you need.   East of the Rockies NA is fine unless you want to go high and far.   

As your mission is usually solo or 2, many will say and E or C model.  Sometimes you can find an E with rayjay stc.  F is usually the best vintage for UL, which you don’t need right now, but maybe later.  J is slightly faster than F, but usually UL challenged and such a drastically higher price.   Many F models have been modified to be as fast as a J and several F’s on the market lately have turbo stc installed.  Many prefer preJ vintage for the bullet proof manual gear, like me. Your budget being under $100k, don’t bother with J or later...     

Edited by Browncbr1
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You'll find varying opinions on the time question.  A lot of peeps here would support @Browncbr1's argument above.  I think there is something to be said for finding a lower time aircraft with less wear-and-tear, but obviously you pay a massive premium for that.   However, if you have the upfront resources, it makes more sense to buy a plane that has everything you need for your mission than to retrofit it yourself.  If you have a spouse, their comfort level by necessity needs to be part of the decision.

I have a J and love it.  I keep trying to convince myself I need a K or a 252, but I just can't.  Financially, the J makes no sense, since F models have similar performance (or slightly better, with enough modifications).  J models tend to be overvalued because there is more demand, but they also tend to be newer and better equipped.  A good long-distance cross-country J is likely to run $90-130k, so finding one will be challenging but not impossible with your budget.  I imagine they also sell better, but I haven't tested that one out.

I'm guessing you're in a position where you're not really sure what your mission is yet.  If so, that means it makes somewhat less sense to go for a J model.  While it's a VERY flexible aircraft,  cross-country over high elevation terrain is not one of its missions.  That's the territory of the M20K, which has about the same upfront cost (although higher maintenance cost).  The J's price premium makes it less of a good first pick than the F.

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I would say you should be very honest with yourself when it comes to what you are capable of flying safely.

I love a 231... I have two that have the rocket mods.

What you are getting into with a 231 is a lot more than just engine management and complex (retractable gear, speed brakes, cowl flaps, higher speeds, more critical to be on speed for landing)  when stepping up from a 152/172.  You are also getting into an aircraft that greatly benefits from going high, so you will want to take advantage of that.  This means you will encounter very different challenges than in a NA aircraft flying at 8-12 k feet. 

You will need to learn about and use oxygen and all the stuff that goes with it... Do you know your Hypoxia symptoms?  Will you be able to fly and assist a passenger that is having O2 issues? Will you use an Oximeter during the flight to keep track of your blood O2 and also be willing and able to have and use a Monoxide detector and check it regularly in flight as you will be running the heater a lot.

Icing conditions are more likely to be encountered as you will be operating in and through more altitudes. 

Are you comfortable going into the flight levels?

Are you disciplined enough to let the engine idle for 5 min after landing to cool the turbo?

Just because you can get over terrain does not automatically make the flight safe... You can get yourself into trouble crossing mountain with no OUT if that motor malfunctions.

 

I am in no way trying to discourage you.  These planes are not difficult to fly, however going from a 152/172 to a 231 is the difference from making cereal in the morning to making a 5 course steak dinner with creme brule.  Neither are HARD, but you have to have your attention on a LOT more things at the same time when making the dinner.

I obviously don't know you or your ability... but just from what I have read, I think a 231 would be biting off a LOT all at the same time.  It may be a good idea to consider a normally aspirated model for a while.  Going to even a C model will be a step up in speed and efficiency and give you an opportunity to become comfortable with that speed and slickness, retracts, low wing, constant speed prop, higher altitudes than you probably go in the 152/172 and the air frame in general.  Then, once you are comfortable with that, adding in the things I mentioned about a 231 will be easy.   You could probably get one for 35-50k and sell it for roughly the same in a few years when you trade up.

Conversely, if you have already decided a 231 is what you want (i  know how it goes :) ), you can always LIMIT yourself to eliminate some of the concerns.  Fly lower and slower until you begin to feel comfortable.  It will just take a lot of discipline to do so.  When you have that turbo and can go to FL240 and do 200 knots, you will want to!

 

Edit: Just an FYI... I fly a G650 for a living.  My Rocket is much more challenging overall to fly.  I have to pay attention to a LOT more things than I do in the 650. And I even have an FO in the 650!

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I'll +1 that TT is meaningless compared to condition.    There are 2000 hour TT airplanes that are corroded and abused to junk status and 8000 hour airplanes that have been hangared and cared for and in as good a condition as you can find.   And there's everything in between.

This is why pre-purchase inspections are important.  ;)

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Buy the nicest model you can afford that has been well taken care of and Properly maintained  with the avionics you need . , any $$$ you have to spend after the purchase could have been used to buy a nicer one in the first place   Call Jimmy Garrison. at  All American Aircraft.  If you know what you’re buying there should be no big surprises ( just my opinion)

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4 hours ago, GMike said:

Would you prefer a high TTAF plane (say 6000 hours) that has a low to mid time engine (say 500 to 1000 SMOH) and no current squawks and needs no avionics upgrades, or would you pick a lower TT plane (say 2000 or 3000 hours) that has a mid time engine but has no modern GPS and has ancient radios? I guess at the root of this question I'm wondering is a high TT a deal breaker for most of you?

My airplane has 8,720 hours on the airframe and 2,120 hours since major overhaul (TBO=1,700). The only "repair" they had to do at annual a few weeks ago was "Adjusted and trimmed nose landing gear doors to close properly." Compressions (this is a Continental) were: 75/73/77/65/76/76. Oil analysis and photo attached.

Don't let airframe - OR - engine time scare you away.

*NOTE: I bought the airplane January 2019 so oil analysis before that were the previous owner's who ran ROP. The February 2019 analysis is a mix of both owners and subsequent values were mine with the engine running LOP, as an FYI.

IMG_0530.jpeg

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 14.56.23.png

Edited by KLRDMD
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Thanks guys for all the advice. And that's a nice Bonanza you have there @KLRDMD. You must be trying to subtly bring me over to the Bonanza camp. ;-)

There's a good number of J's and K231's on the market under $100k. From some of the comments above, should I be thinking there's probably something wrong or hidden problems with a J or K231 at that price? 

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Thanks guys for all the advice. And that's a nice Bonanza you have there [mention=7117]KLRDMD[/mention]. You must be trying to subtly bring me over to the Bonanza camp. ;-)
There's a good number of J's and K231's on the market under $100k. From some of the comments above, should I be thinking there's probably something wrong or hidden problems with a J or K231 at that price? 

77s are lower, but anything else less than $100k has either a runout engine or original avionics.
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22 minutes ago, GMike said:

Thanks guys for all the advice. And that's a nice Bonanza you have there @KLRDMD. You must be trying to subtly bring me over to the Bonanza camp. ;-)

They are both good airplanes. All airplanes are compromises, pick the compromises you can best live with.  I've owned four Mooneys and three Beech products. There are only a handful of Mooneys that have the useful load I now need and they are priced at two to three times what my Bonanza was.

Edited by KLRDMD
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Lots of good advice above. The problem with doing your instrument rating in your own plane is that right now you may not know what you really need and will want for training till perhaps you get started and get some exposure to some of the different modern avionics out there. Also I would discourage anymore from getting their rating with VOR's alone; although many do but your instrument training will be very limited that way. Club aircraft in my locale are typically much better equipped than any budget owner aircraft bought to save rental money cost. 

Also I would shy you away from a K for under $100. What ever you buy I'd recommend it being a nice example of the model and well maintained; not the cheapest example you can find. That will slow your training down to a crawl as you take care of unforeseen deferred maintenance. A 231 is also a handful to manage with the fixed (bolt) or manual (merlin) wastegate. I personally wasn't all that satisfied with my 231 till I upgraded to the 252 and now have the ideal turbo upgraded to the Encore.  Turbo adds whole another level of capability to the plane. There have been countless trips I would have canceled in an NA aircraft that I was still able to fly with the turbo. But it also requires you to fly in the upper teens for the main benefits of much faster cruise and ability to fly over the weather.

Its not out of the question for a recently minted C172 private pilot to transition to K model. But expect it'll take more than 10-15 hrs in type that most clubs require for a complex checkout; because the plane is a handful. I had a client that was a very good new C172 pilot, yet it still took him 30+ hrs  to transition in part because his business only allowed him to get away once a week;  and then of course we couldn't fly every week.

But for most of us, once you go Turbo, you won't go back to NA. But if  this is mainly just for continued training it will more likely just slow the training process down with more unneeded complexity.  A 252 on the other hand is as easy as flying a J model.

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+1 for ignoring total airframe time. That is the least important data point.

+1 for buying the nicest example you can afford. For example, you'll be much happier with an $80K M20E than an $80K M20J. The reason is that the E will be the top of it's class, well maintained and fully upgraded. The J will be the bottom of it's class along with all the deferred maintenance and all the upgrades left for you to spend on. That's just an example but you'd be better off buying an older model that is better equipped, mid time engine, well maintained, flying every week, rather than a newer model that is in rough condition or a hangar queen, and is therefore "cheap".

Rules to follow:

Don't buy a Mooney without an autopilot.
Don't buy a Mooney without WAAS GPS.
An engine with between 500 and 1000 hours SMOH is best, runout is second best (pay less for the plane and get the engine overhauled yourself), and a new/fresh overhaul is third best.
Don't buy a Mooney that has been sitting. Find something that is regularly flying, with a current annual.
Don't buy a Mooney with a fresh paint job.

Make a list of all the things you're looking for in a Mooney, sort the list by order of importance, resort the list as you learn more, buy the Mooney that gets the furthest down the list.

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I've only owned one plane, but I beat the hell out of the 172 I used for training. 10k Mooney hours probably equals 2k hours in a trainer as far as wear and tear on the airframe. 

Edited by rbridges
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If you can find a $60-$80k e or f, put the rest in the bank to start your maintenance/upgrade fund, you’ll be really happy.  Unless you’re regularly crossing the middle of the Rockies, E and F are fine out west and less complicated to fly/maintain than a turbo.  You said this isn’t necessarily your forever plane... fly it for 3 or 4 years and you can see if you think you really need turbo?

If you want one all tricked out with glass panel and eis, find one it’s already done.  Read @gsxrpilot post about autopilot and engines about 3 more times and follow his advice.  If you have questions, ask!

Also, insurance is probably gonna cost you $2-$3k /year on an $80k f.  Just a guess.

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14 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Also, insurance is probably gonna cost you $2-$3k /year on an $80k f.  Just a guess.

 

I have my 67 F with $85k hull for $1300 with global, but I’m bracing for renewal come December  

40 years old, class med, instrument, commercial, multi

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Most important to me when I was shopping was recent and regular usage.  Try to find one that's been flown 75-100 per year for at least the last several years.  I went with the F and made sure the plane had a WAAS GPS.  I bought mine with a run-out engine (and run-out price:)) but, I believe thanks to the previous owners constant and regular use, I'm now approaching 3 years and 2400 hours SMOH with no issues.

It also has an AP which at the time I didn't care about...NOW, I'm VERY glad it does.  If you've been renting like I used to, long trips were rare (VFR only, rental scheduling, minimum daily hours...) Hand flying for four straight hours gets old.  And, for instrument flying, while you MUST be able to do EVERYTHING without the AP, I believe it adds to safety by allowing you to manage the bigger picture by freeing up 'CPU cycles'

Like Paul said, you want to train for your IFR with a GPS.  I got my instrument rating many years ago with just VORs...I still struggle with the GPS.

As others have said, do NOT worry about total time.  Look for condition.

Good luck!

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I have both. I have a 6000TTAF airplane that is wonderful with a low time engine. I love the plane. I also have a <2500TTAF Mooney Rocket. I like that plane. While the Rocket is a more practical traveling machine, I can replace it easily. The M20F, not so much, and it's a more enjoyable airplane to fly. The Rocket is for traveling and the M20F is for flying. 

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7 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

 

 

I have my 67 F with $85k hull for $1300 with global, but I’m bracing for renewal come December  

40 years old, class med, instrument, commercial, multi

Yeah I’m sure yours will go up a little, but the OP has no instrument rating, no complex/retract time, and fresh PPL.  He’s gonna pay more than you for sure.

My 68F is insured through Airspeed (republic) and jumped from $1k to $1500k this year.  Global was even more!  $85k hull, ATP, 4200hrs, etc.

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5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah I’m sure yours will go up a little, but the OP has no instrument rating, no complex/retract time, and fresh PPL.  He’s gonna pay more than you for sure.

My 68F is insured through Airspeed (republic) and jumped from $1k to $1500k this year.  Global was even more!  $85k hull, ATP, 4200hrs, etc.

What's odd is my M20F jumped a couple hundred dollars, but my Rocket went down, making the combined premium roughly the same as the previous year. My guess is there have been an uptick in gear up landings of vintage Mooneys. 

I recommend you get a Rocket too, that way your premiums can remain the same. 

Edited by FloridaMan
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I agree with everything Paul and Paul stated except I feel it’s a good idea to acquire your instrument rating in your transition plane it kind of knocks off two birds at one time. I wouldn’t consider the time it takes to transition to and acquire your instrument rating as any guide, the most important thing is to get properly trained and proficient in both aspects, once you consider finances and time over quality training you’ve made a big mistake. I remember way back when my instructor said your ready for your check ride, I aced my written but got another 15-20 hours of training, he mentioned that I was over trained, never possible. Therefore I’d consider the best conditioned airplane maintenance wise, best avionics I could afford to make my flying relative easy, learn and practice all the nuances of a 231 if you go that route, financially you will be ahead in the long run. 
if a good to great 231 pops up learn slowly and properly how to fly the 231 properly, it is the toughest of all Mooney’s to fly properly. Good luck and welcome to the fold.

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7 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

What's odd is my M20F jumped a couple hundred dollars, but my Rocket went down, making the combined premium roughly the same as the previous year. My guess is there have been an uptick in gear up landings of vintage Mooneys. 

I recommend you get a Rocket too, that way your premiums can remain the same. 

Ha, that’s awesome!  I would love a Rocket, but the F has the best UL and overall economics for me. I gotta feed and haul two growing kids for 15ish more years!

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Hey @GMike. How about a Rajay turbo F for those times when you want to get over the mountains? You might want to check out this one that is being sold due to impending family expansion. I think it meets all of the advice about engine time, AP, GPS, etc.

 

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@Oldguy  appreciate the plug. To the OP, ask me anything. We bought this plane and I did my training for my PPL in this plane, never have flown anything else save for a little SR22 time my instructor gave me while on a business trip he flew me on. As a new student pilot I was a little overwhelmed at first but after you get a good flow established around the pattern and perhaps a self made drawing of the pattern and checklist to go with it then it becomes second nature if you can fly regularly. Also if done right, which is not very hard to do, they are easy to land. I've had 2 bad landings, and dont worry I did not do damage, it was before this whole rebuild and latest annual. Keep speeds around 100mph downwind, drop gear early to help with speed management and to keep from getting behind the plane, 90 base, 80 final and your golden. I got my PPL this year in April and I fly every 2 or so weeks and it sticks with you. I'm the kind of guy that is looking at my gauges quite abit, I anyways feel like its a lot, so having a new checklist even if it where with a few extra steps wouldn't be too much to learn quickly. Plus like previously mentioned, you could ease into it with a K. As far as the pricing and conditions for J's and K's  I have little experience with that but I do agree I would rather have a top of the line vs bare bones setup even if the bare bones is newer. 

If I where to do it all over again and not buy a plane before I had my license then personally even though I love Mooneys, I would go experimental with a RV or get into the tail dragger world with a Maule or Bearhawk or something. That is probably what I'll do once I get back into aviation after this plane sells, and I like the idea of building a plane with my family once we have land and shop etc..

 

Oh and a plug for the plane. Its a great F model with speed mods, no glass panel but solid good avionics. I have not used the turbo a whole lot but it works good to get your MP back up to where you want it when it starts dropping at higher altitudes, or you can just leave it off. I believe it also has built in oxygen but I've never used it. For IFR the 430 needs a database refresh (card download) and I believe the pitot static system would need to be tested again as well ( I'm not IFR yet so I havnt kept things current for IFR flying, so I would need to look over those things ) . 

I plan on going XC tomorrow for about 5hrs, let me know if you'd like in-flight recordings of something or anything else.

Buying a plane is exciting, its a time where patience can wear thin but be smart and you should get something good.

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