How to Lose Your License

[jaylw314]

Just now, kortopates said:

You can tell by the aircraft history on flightaware.


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Er, I meant, that only tells you the plane's history, though?  I mean, if he was in a group partnership there's no way to tell which one had been flying the plane on any given day previously, right?

[jaylw314]

I'd also point out the guy said "I'm INSIDE" in response to the instruction to remain clear.  Regardless of whether he actually entered or did not enter, it shows he

• BELIEVED he was in the Class B and
• INTENDED to be in the Class B

That's not good.

[jaylw314]

22 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Looking at FlightAware, it looks like he was in the Class B surface area for about 2 minutes.  Depending on the altimeter setting, he may have busted the Class B 5000' floor on the way out of town headed home too.  If the altimeter was up around 3030 or higher then he was probably OK.

Ooops.  Got that backwards.  If his altimeter was below about 29.50 he should be OK.

Why would his altimeter setting matter? It doesn't affect the Mode C broadcast, and if he set it incorrectly and violated class B, it's still a problem?

[Ibra]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I wonder if it's a similar situation for him where he's been routed around the Bravo so many times and this time he just said F*&K it, I'm going through. 

Yes, we don't know the history of that flight but he did not say his intention clearly for ATC to work around him even with no clearance, "crossing Bravo at XXXft, heading ABC" ?

One can always say "unable" or even violate clearances and tell ATC immediately they can't comply plus their intentions, not that it will get him off the hook 

His intentions on what he was doing inside the Bravo were not clear at all, maybe he had a bad day? or had a previous clearance? but he did compromise on his and other safety 

I have been asked by ATC to orbit VFR on base leg in the pattern at 800ft agl as there was another IFR traffic inbound on long final, something I refused but it went really bad: lesson learned, I should have been more polite ("unable") & clear on my intentions ("will fly runway heading") and let them sort the rest, instead of having two aircraft going around on runway heading due to miscommunication in the heat of the moment...

Obviously flying a light aircraft near airliners traffic & wake on own navigation is not a wise choice without some ATC help 

[jaylw314]

31 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I have been asked by ATC to orbit VFR on base leg in the pattern at 800ft agl as there was another IFR traffic inbound on long final, something I refused but it went really bad: lesson learned, I should have been more polite ("unable") & clear on my intentions ("will fly runway heading") and let them sort the rest, instead of having two aircraft going around on runway heading due to miscommunication in the heat of the moment...

Yikes.  In fairness to you, I wouldn't be comfortable doing 360's on the base leg at that altitude.   The fact you were asked to do it does demonstrate a lack of foresight on the part of the tower that day.  I've landed at Portland Intl several times, and they either ask me to orbit on the downwind or ask if I can expedite from the downwind to final.

[kortopates]

48 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Yes, we don't know the history of that flight but he did not say his intention clearly for ATC to work around him even with no clearance, "crossing Bravo at XXXft, heading ABC" ?

One can always say "unable" or even violate clearances and tell ATC immediately they can't comply plus their intentions, not that it will get him off the hook 

His intentions on what he was doing inside the Bravo were not clear at all, maybe he had a bad day? or had a previous clearance? but he did compromise on his and other safety 

I have been asked by ATC to orbit VFR on base leg in the pattern at 800ft agl as there was another IFR traffic inbound on long final, something I refused but it went really bad: lesson learned, I should have been more polite ("unable") & clear on my intentions ("will fly runway heading") and let them sort the rest, instead of having two aircraft going around on runway heading due to miscommunication in the heat of the moment...

Obviously flying a light aircraft near airliners traffic & wake on own navigation is not a wise choice without some ATC help 

"Unable" doesn't apply here. About the only reason I can see he could ignore the clearance requirement before entering the Bravo would be if the pilot was having an emergency in which case the controller wouldn't deny a clearance but would offer him everything she had to help.

"Unable" is for before an deviation has already occurred when issued an instruction and while you and the controller still have time to try something else. But even then "unable" should come with at least a brief explanation and preferably an offer of an alternative means of compliance with the controller stated intentions (such as avoiding traffic). Professional use of "unable" doesn't lead to tying up the frequency with forcing the controller to play 20 questions on the frequency. If controller tells you to turn immediately for traffic I hope no one would seriously consider saying "unable" - this was essentially the case here when he entered Bravo without a clearance. 

Personally, this sounds like simple "road rage" by the pilot. The FAA inspector will talk to him after Las Vegas approach forwards the data to them but I suspect the pilot will be seeing both a suspension and remedial training at the very least. His anti-authority attitude gone wild really deserves the maximum IMO.

Edited June 27, 2020 by kortopates

[Mooneymite]

15 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

.... I wonder if he'd been denied entry to the Bravo many times before and decided to bust it this time and knew it was coming.

I think what my reaction would be if:
a) I thought I was staying clear of the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... My default response would be to apologize and say I thought I was staying clear, sorry, I'll descend/climb/etc to vacate the Bravo.
b) I thought I was cleared into the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... the default response would be to apologize and say I thought you cleared me into the Bravo, I must have mis-heard.

I can't think of any situation that I would respond with "Unable" to that call from ATC. Unless I knew the call from ATC was coming and was planning my response.

Either that or he's just a general asshole all the time in most all situations.

I'm very familiar with ATL's Class B.  One afternoon I was flying around the SW side getting flight following and Approach told me I had entered the Bravo without clearance.  I just asked, "How do you suggest I exit?" since it was clear that our understandings of where the Bravo boundaries were was different.  She suggested, "Descend".  I did so, but shortly thereafter, she apologized for her mistake saying she normally worked the north side and wasn't all that familiar with the south side Bravo.

Controllers are human, too.  No harm, no foul.

[Ross Taylor]

Exactly, Paul.  This would have been a complete non-issue, or at least a very less entertaining tape, if he'd been professional.  Courtesy and professionalism can go a long way...but in his case, he used the radio like a CB without proper usage of call signs and such...which only adds to the "evidence" which will go against him.

[kortopates]

 

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

I have been asked by ATC to orbit VFR on base leg in the pattern at 800ft agl as there was another IFR traffic inbound on long final,

 

26 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Yikes.  In fairness to you, I wouldn't be comfortable doing 360's on the base leg at that altitude.   The fact you were asked to do it does demonstrate a lack of foresight on the part of the tower that day.  I've landed at Portland Intl several times, and they either ask me to orbit on the downwind or ask if I can expedite from the downwind to final.

Not trying to sound judgmental here. I know we all have our own comfort levels and differing experience levels with busy airports. But in my neighborhood, under the busiest TRACON in the world,  we can't solo a student pilot till they are able to perform a 360 in the pattern. Unfortunately they're a way of life here and because of multiple runways we have different pattern heights on different runways as well. Request to do a 360 don't always occur on the downwind, they occur equally  few miles out before getting onto final as well. I clearly can't know the circumstance that day but apparently the controller wanted to steer you away from final before you intercepted it. It may well have been late on the controllers part, but better late than sorry.  We've had too many midair collisions here in the pattern, one still very fresh in the memory of all our pilots. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by kortopates

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Not trying to sound judgmental here. I know we all have our own comfort levels and differing experience levels with busy airports. But in my neighborhood, under the busiest TRACON in the world,  we can't solo a student pilot till they are able to perform a 360 in the pattern. Unfortunately they're a way of life here and because of multiple runways we have different pattern heights on different runways as well. Request to do a 360 don't always occur on the downwind, they occur equally  few miles out before getting onto final as well. I clearly can't know the circumstance that day but apparently the controller wanted to steer you away from final before you intercepted it. It may well have been late on the controllers part, but better late than sorry.  We've had two many midair collisions here in the pattern, one still very fresh in the memory of all out pilots. 

Understood, I started my pilot training at KSMO.  One near miss there stuck out in my head where there was someone on a straight in final about a mile out, and the tower asked someone to make a right 360 on left base.  My instructor and I kind of looked at each other wide-eyed, fortunately the guy on final heard and immediately turned out to the right to avoid the oncoming plane.

I was thinking more along the lines that the 360 on base interferes with final (unless you're in a HUGE pattern). That, combined with the fact that you're lower to the ground, is two things that reduce your safety margins.  I'd still prefer to do a 360 on downwind if I have a say...

[jaylw314]

21 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

I'm very familiar with ATL's Class B.  One afternoon I was flying around the SW side getting flight following and Approach told me I had entered the Bravo without clearance.  I just asked, "How do you suggest I exit?" since it was clear that our understandings of where the Bravo boundaries were was different.  She suggested, "Descend".  I did so, but shortly thereafter, she apologized for her mistake saying she normally worked the north side and wasn't all that familiar with the south side Bravo.

Controllers are human, too.  No harm, no foul.

Nice, that was pretty classy on everyone's part

[tmo]

To me the video sounds almost like the pilot was confused between class C (radio contact is enough) vs class B (explicit clearance required)...

[kortopates]

To me the video sounds almost like the pilot was confused between class C (radio contact is enough) vs class B (explicit clearance required)...

I wondered how much of that was attitude versus anything else. It appears he lives under the SOCAL Bravo though so that’s not possible.

But regardless, I am sure before this is over he’ll be an expert in airspace regs after all the expensive remedial training he’ll get with a CFI, if they don’t revoke his cert.


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[Ibra]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I was thinking more along the lines that the 360 on base interferes with final (unless you're in a HUGE pattern). That, combined with the fact that you're lower to the ground, is two things that reduce your safety margins.  I'd still prefer to do a 360 on downwind if I have a say...

Yes ground & traffic sight were very exciting that day, I am way more comfortable orbiting on downwind leg or extending my downwind (for short moment preferred to trust my own eyes than ATC watching my back), the event was a fiasco, the other traffic was faster on approach than what me/ATC expected, they were cleared to land while me cleared to orbit, then they did low go-around with no ATC input (unstable approach & few TCAS warning & could not spot me), I had them on visual but lost it as I started to orbit and drifting above their final path, so decided to call for "go-away", ATC had no clue: their "go-around" call was too late and my "go-away" call is unheard of...

This was Class D, so not that much relevant to "busting Bravo": you will do as you are told there and ATC does handle everything but the point still apply if you fail to comply or want to deviate, at least say clear intension in a timely manner (neither me or other traffic did well on this) rather than being a "lose canon" in the Bravo, but I agree with @kortopates this was more "road rage" than "unable/negative" or "crossing your Bravo at XXX with no clearance"...

[jlunseth]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I thought about you as I was composing that post. I wonder if it's a similar situation for him where he's been routed around the Bravo so many times and this time he just said F*&K it, I'm going through. 

He's just not nearly the responsible, professional, gentleman, that you are Hank. 

At MSP, if on an IFR flight plan coming from the north or northeast for KFCM, which just southwest of MSP, they will often vector you over downtown and then directly over the MSP airport at, say, 4 or 5k. Safest place for you, all the big iron are landing underneath. Nice view. If you are VFR flight following, forget it.

[jlunseth]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:34 PM, Bob - S50 said:

Looking at FlightAware, it looks like he was in the Class B surface area for about 2 minutes.  Depending on the altimeter setting, he may have busted the Class B 5000' floor on the way out of town headed home too.  

He was on an IFR flight plan the next day, look at the altitude and route filed.

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Why would his altimeter setting matter? It doesn't affect the Mode C broadcast, and if he set it incorrectly and violated class B, it's still a problem?

Because the altitudes shown on FlightAware what you would see if your altimeter was set to 2992. It looked like he was inside the Class B by about 400 feet on his way out. If the altimeter was 2950, he could have been right at the base even though FlightAware showed 5400.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

Yes ground & traffic sight were very exciting that day, I am way more comfortable orbiting on downwind leg or extending my downwind (for short moment preferred to trust my own eyes than ATC watching my back), the event was a fiasco, the other traffic was faster on approach than what me/ATC expected, they were cleared to land while me cleared to orbit, then they did low go-around with no ATC input (unstable approach & few TCAS warning & could not spot me), I had them on visual but lost it as I started to orbit and drifting above their final path, so decided to call for "go-away", ATC had no clue: their "go-around" call was too late and my "go-away" call is unheard of...

This was Class D, so not that much relevant to "busting Bravo": you will do as you are told there and ATC does handle everything but the point still apply if you fail to comply or want to deviate, at least say clear intension in a timely manner (neither me or other traffic did well on this) rather than being a "lose canon" in the Bravo, but I agree with @kortopates this was more "road rage" than "unable/negative" or "crossing your Bravo at XXX with no clearance"...

Fiasco is right. It sounds eerily similar to the mid-air I was thinking about composing my prior response. Sounds like your tower controller was either saturated or just totally caught off guard by the other plane coming down final faster than expected. In the accident I was thinking of, the controller was in training and the supervisor had gone on break and meanwhile traffic went up in the pattern beyond what the controller could handle alone. Then a fast crewed 135 turbo prop  was coming in on a long right base while a solo pilot C172 doing touch & goes in the pattern on a right downwind. The controller apparently didn't see the impending collision till late because of other traffic and but got a call off to the C172 to do a 360 - it proabbly would have been in time too but but the wrong C172 answered back, tying up the frequency!  The other plane wasn't even a factor since they were leaving the pattern, but dutifully it a 360. The controller may have goofed on the call sign too; probably not the fault of the second C172 pilot either. But by then time was up and there was no second chance to fix it, the two aircraft met as the C172 just turned to base - no one survived.  

Somewhat like your case, the controller just wasn't ready for that level of traffic yet either. Sorry I if sounded like your situation was pilot reluctance not a controller issue. 

    

[rbridges]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

 

He's just not nearly the responsible, professional, gentleman, that you are Hank. 

Holy crap @Hank, I just about spit up my water when I read that.  

Edited June 27, 2020 by rbridges

[RLCarter]

Like I’ve said before, ATC gave him several chances to get out of Bravo, it doesn’t matter what any of us think as far as if he was IN or OUT, when the FAA looks at the data they will look at history of the controllers scope. Even if the FAA finds that he was CLEAR of Bravo he still did not comply with ATC. In the air is the wrong place to see who has the biggest.... well you know. I fly VFR over to the coast a lot and  generally tell Approach it’s just sightseeing and if they want to vector me out traffics way for either KHRL or KBRO go for it, I’m just converting 100LL into Airplane noise

[Hank]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I thought about you as I was composing that post. I wonder if it's a similar situation for him where he's been routed around the Bravo so many times and this time he just said F*&K it, I'm going through. 

He's just not nearly the responsible, professional, gentleman, that you are Hank. 

I'm just another classy Auburn man.

War Eagle!

(sorry, Rob . . . . . .  )

[GeeBee]

A 709 ride will complicate his life sufficiently he will never want to wrestle that tiger again.

 

 

[RLCarter]

54 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

A 709 ride will complicate his life sufficiently he will never want to wrestle that tiger again.

With his attitude..... he will 

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Because the altitudes shown on FlightAware what you would see if your altimeter was set to 2992. It looked like he was inside the Class B by about 400 feet on his way out. If the altimeter was 2950, he could have been right at the base even though FlightAware showed 5400.

Ah, I was thinking about it backwards, got it

 

[Frank B.]

On 6/26/2020 at 1:44 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Oh, they already know about it. If the controller gives you a number to call, they are filing a report on the incident. The FSDO will give that knucklehead a call in the next couple of weeks.

I am not sure that a NASA report would benefit him much in this situation.