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HE WAS UNDER THE BRAVO THE ENTIRE TIME!

Interested to see the link to I assume the FlightAware track you saw to draw that conclusion.

 

But if the ads-b data was really close in altitude to the floor, we should all realize its radar data that is controlling here not ads-b or our altimeter and thus why we need to maintain at least a couple hundred feet of separation. Lots of pilots are deviated by going right up to the boundary on their iPad or what have you.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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3 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

HE WAS UNDER THE BRAVO THE ENTIRE TIME!

Looking at FlightAware, it looks like he was in the Class B surface area for about 2 minutes.  Depending on the altimeter setting, he may have busted the Class B 5000' floor on the way out of town headed home too.  If the altimeter was up around 3030 or higher then he was probably OK.

Ooops.  Got that backwards.  If his altimeter was below about 29.50 he should be OK.

Edited by Bob - S50
Logic error
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maybe I missed it but when was this? without a date how can you look on flightaware... It doesn't really matter, if the controllers scope shows him in Bravo he's screwed. He asked for a clearance into Bravo and was denied and continued on with his screw you attitude

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This is just unbelievable.  I simply cannot imagine what would cause a pilot to refuse to comply to ATC instructions like this.  If there was a safety of flight issue issue/ or if he had declared I can understand it - but this is just not acceptable.  Maybe he forgot that you have to be cleared into Class B - not just establish 2 way communication with the controller...  

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The pilot sounds incoherent almost as if he's high on something.  They should have LE meet him at HND when he landed and test him.  BTW, when he was instructed to remain clear of the Bravo he stated he was "already in it."  I'm not familiar with the airspace so he may have been under the shelf as @Floridaman indicated and might get lucky if he didn't actually bust the bravo.  Regardless, his actions were unacceptable, disruptive and certainly not indicative of someone I want operating in the NAS.

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This is an outright atrocity. The controller is nothing but a nazi trampling over this pilots’ right to fly. We need to start a fund to bail this guy out if he gets in trouble. Better yet, we need to defund the FAA and burn those control towers down. Enough is enough! :D

Edited by Tony Starke
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13 minutes ago, Tony Starke said:

This is an outright atrocity. The controller is nothing but a nazi trampling over this pilots’ right to fly. We need to start a fund to bail this guy out if he gets in trouble. Better yet, we need to defund the FAA and burn those control towers down. Enough is enough!

might want to add a smiley face emoji, unless you are serious, in which case..... are you serious? :D 

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1 hour ago, Brian E. said:

The pilot sounds incoherent almost as if he's high on something.  They should have LE meet him at HND when he landed and test him.  BTW, when he was instructed to remain clear of the Bravo he stated he was "already in it."  I'm not familiar with the airspace so he may have been under the shelf as @Floridaman indicated and might get lucky if he didn't actually bust the bravo.  Regardless, his actions were unacceptable, disruptive and certainly not indicative of someone I want operating in the NAS.

I also tend to wonder if something is wrong here.  Obviously serious speculation and probably never will be proven, but medical, drugs, or alcohol?   It seems like someone of sound mind would not fly into a bravo, be warned about it, and rather than get the heck out of the bravo, fly further into it and start an argument with the controller.  From her initial tone, it sounds like a turn out of the bravo would have resolved the situation without the controller calling out the deviation.

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Yeah, I tend to think something else was going on. Evidently there was one previous communication when the guy checked in with Approach. Then the next communication some time later he immediately responds with "Unable". It's almost as if he was expecting to get caught. He knew he was doing something wrong but had a plan for it. 

From FlightAware it looks like he's a very active pilot. I wonder if he'd been denied entry to the Bravo many times before and decided to bust it this time and knew it was coming.

I think what my reaction would be if:
a) I thought I was staying clear of the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... My default response would be to apologize and say I thought I was staying clear, sorry, I'll descend/climb/etc to vacate the Bravo.
b) I thought I was cleared into the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... the default response would be to apologize and say I thought you cleared me into the Bravo, I must have mis-heard.

I can't think of any situation that I would respond with "Unable" to that call from ATC. Unless I knew the call from ATC was coming and was planning my response.

Either that or he's just a general asshole all the time in most all situations.

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Looking at the radar returns in the video it does appear that he was underneath the bravo where he was shown.   It does not show his entire path to Henderson. 

As others have said, I think even if he was clear of the bravo the entire time he needs more training or a checkride or something.

 

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6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Looking at the radar returns in the video it does appear that he was underneath the bravo where he was shown.   

 

I don’t think so. Unfortunately, it appears he descended to 4,500 to get under the shelf quite a ways out, 15 minutes before landing, but then for whatever reason went through the Bravo ground ring. He was inside the ground ring when he had the testy exchange with the controller.  Almost looks intentional. All he had to do was turn south about 9 miles out to avoid the ground ring and then west to Henderson. It probably would have added two or three minutes to his trip in total.

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Just now, jlunseth said:

I don’t think so. Unfortunately, it appears he descended to 4,500 to get under the shelf quite a ways out, 15 minutes before landing, but then for whatever reason went through the Bravo ground ring. He was inside the ground ring when he had the testy exchange with the controller.  Almost looks intentional. All he had to do was turn south about 9 miles out to avoid the ground ring and then west to Henderson. It probably would have added two or three minutes to his trip in total.

Yeah, the returns in the vid don't show when he went through the surface portion of the bravo.   But where it did show him it appeared he was underneath the shelf.    The vid was edited a little strangely, almost a Pulp Fiction kind of treatment.

 

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So...

Lots could be wrong...

Who went out of their way to create such a well orchestrated video?

Is it a demo of how crummy the radar is?

How busy that one controller was?

How one bozo can occupy/distract a busy person’s decision making...
 

The controller sounds like they followed protocols...

If the ground controller was busy being friendly... expect he was rolling out the red carpet... to make it easier for the LEO to know which plane to approach...
 

Awaiting the facts... they will show up if this is real...

:)
 

There are so many good ways to avoid and undo this situation... makes a great safety conversation...

PP thoughts only, not an aviation attorney....

Best regards,

-a-

 

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For whatever its worth, I just looked at the flightradar24 track pretty closely, compared with the aeronautical maps, and it does appear he was in the very southern area of the ground ring.  There are two golf courses which are ENE of HND which are in the Bravo and he was north of them...He also clipped it for a minute just on the west side of Lake Mead before descending below (directly on the approach to 26R at LAS). 

Based on his track, it appeared that he was looking at the map and trying to cut it as close as possible but he was off by a a half mile.

Edited by Davidv
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For what it's worth, VASAviation's "radar" display is a recreation based on various tracking data websites.  He takes audio from LiveATC, grabs the appropriate tracking data for the area & timeframe, and feeds it to a piece of software written specifically for the channel.  That software generates the "radar" video.  As I understand it, actual controllers helped get the software "close enough" so it looks like the real displays, but it's entirely a recreation based on public information.

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9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah, I tend to think something else was going on. Evidently there was one previous communication when the guy checked in with Approach. Then the next communication some time later he immediately responds with "Unable". It's almost as if he was expecting to get caught. He knew he was doing something wrong but had a plan for it. 

From FlightAware it looks like he's a very active pilot. I wonder if he'd been denied entry to the Bravo many times before and decided to bust it this time and knew it was coming.

I think what my reaction would be if:
a) I thought I was staying clear of the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... My default response would be to apologize and say I thought I was staying clear, sorry, I'll descend/climb/etc to vacate the Bravo.
b) I thought I was cleared into the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... the default response would be to apologize and say I thought you cleared me into the Bravo, I must have mis-heard.

I can't think of any situation that I would respond with "Unable" to that call from ATC. Unless I knew the call from ATC was coming and was planning my response.

 

Either that or he's just a general asshole all the time in most all situations.

Every time that ATL Approach tells me to "stay out of the Bravo" when my direct path crosses the field (09-27) on course 050, I think that's the emptiest air for miles around and would be the best place for me. Instead I slink around the edge carefully using my G430W, and flynright through the somewhat-busy approach gates. Unless I'm IFR, then I get the penalty box of SINCA or HEFIN (and sometimes my choice if which one, because the controllers know the difference is neglible).

There have been times I've fantasized about cancelling flight following and blowing through their approach gates at 9500' and letting them vector the big boys around me . . . . but I'm not stupid. I have never imagined going straight through the middle anyway, even though the dogleg adds almost 30 minutes to my trip. And no, I don't fancy descending several thousand feet to go through the outer ring, because once clear I'd need to climb to clear terrain. So I curse the controller in my head and turn the yoke a little left or right depending on what I see weatherwise. At my newest new base, a little further north, going across the north side is the best bet even though that puts me over the foothills.

Edited by Hank
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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Every time that ATL Approach tells me to "stay out of the Bravo" when my direct path crosses the field (09-27) on course 050, I think that's the emptiest air for miles around and would be the best place for me. Instead I slink around the edge carefully using my G430W, and flynright through the somewhat-busy approach gates. Unless I'm IFR, then I get the penalty box of SINCA or HEFIN (and sometimes my choice if which one, because the controllers know the difference is neglible).

There have been times I've fantasized about cancelling flight following and blowing through their approach gates at 9500' and letting them vector the big boys around me . . . . but I'm not stupid. I have never imagined going straight through the middle anyway, even though the dogleg adds almost 30 minutes to my trip. And no, I don't fancy descending several thousand feet to go through the outer ring, because once clear I'd need to climb to clear terrain. So I curse the controller in my head and turn the yoke a little left or right depending on what I see weatherwise. At my newest new base, a little further north, going across the north side is the best bet even though that puts me over the foothills.

I thought about you as I was composing that post. I wonder if it's a similar situation for him where he's been routed around the Bravo so many times and this time he just said F*&K it, I'm going through. 

He's just not nearly the responsible, professional, gentleman, that you are Hank. 

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10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah, I tend to think something else was going on. Evidently there was one previous communication when the guy checked in with Approach. Then the next communication some time later he immediately responds with "Unable". It's almost as if he was expecting to get caught. He knew he was doing something wrong but had a plan for it. 

From FlightAware it looks like he's a very active pilot. I wonder if he'd been denied entry to the Bravo many times before and decided to bust it this time and knew it was coming.

I think what my reaction would be if:
a) I thought I was staying clear of the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... My default response would be to apologize and say I thought I was staying clear, sorry, I'll descend/climb/etc to vacate the Bravo.
b) I thought I was cleared into the Bravo but then get that call from ATC... the default response would be to apologize and say I thought you cleared me into the Bravo, I must have mis-heard.

I can't think of any situation that I would respond with "Unable" to that call from ATC. Unless I knew the call from ATC was coming and was planning my response.

Either that or he's just a general asshole all the time in most all situations.

Completely agree.  He seems to have a *slightly anti-authority personality and probably thought it was rediculous (in his own mind) that he couldn’t clip the bravo on that southern end given the downwind to 26 is 3-4K feet above him.

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Thinking about how funny the “unable” response was, I think someone (maybe the justplanesilly guy on YouTube) should make a parody of him.  It would be similar to:

”1NR ready for takeoff runway 9”

”roger 1NR, hold short, landing traffic”

”unable”

”you’re unable to hold short??”

”yes, I’m taking off now, don’t bother me in my takeoff roll, it’s unsafe”

Edited by Davidv
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14 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah, I tend to think something else was going on. Evidently there was one previous communication when the guy checked in with Approach. Then the next communication some time later he immediately responds with "Unable". It's almost as if he was expecting to get caught. He knew he was doing something wrong but had a plan for it. 

From FlightAware it looks like he's a very active pilot. I wonder if he'd been denied entry to the Bravo many times before and decided to bust it this time and knew it was coming.

How do you tell a pilot is active on FlightAware?  You'd only be able to see if the aircraft was being flown, right?

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