How to Lose Your License

[Frank B.]

15 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Yikes.  In fairness to you, I wouldn't be comfortable doing 360's on the base leg at that altitude.   The fact you were asked to do it does demonstrate a lack of foresight on the part of the tower that day.  I've landed at Portland Intl several times, and they either ask me to orbit on the downwind or ask if I can expedite from the downwind to final.

What about a 360 on short final? We have absolutely fabulous controllers in our tower here and I can’t imagine working all of the Riddle and PEA student traffic that they have to deal with but I wasn’t going to slow up any more than 90 knots on final. I had a Heavy passenger load and 90° OAT. Better fast than sorry when you have plenty of runway. I was in my A36.

[Ibra]

On 6/28/2020 at 11:25 AM, Frank B. said:

What about a 360 on short final?

There is a high risk depending on the guy who is flying, his skills, passenger disteaction and the type of flight

Dealing with hasty ATC clearances is far more easier whe one is doing VFR pattern practice 1SOB as they can fly pattern like fast jet eyes outside cockpit on speed before switching to STOL aircraft mode when ATC says clear to land, that is far more difficult when you are coming out of a long trip discussing dinner plans 

Besides loss of control or landing too fast but usually it is a long runway, there is load of risk forgetting aircraft config for landing or changing it, I know an instructor and student someone landed a DA42 gear up after they were asked to orbit, they did not even recall why they cleaned the aircraft on those two orbits and who did what...

Edited June 29, 2020 by Ibra

[Hank]

55 minutes ago, Ibra said:

There is a high risk depending on the guy who is flying, his skills, passenger disteaction and the type of flight

Dealing with hasty ATC clearances is far more easier whe one is doing VFR pattern practice 1SOB as they can fly pattern like fast jet eyes outside cockpit on speed before switching to STOL aircraft mode when ATC says clear to land, that is far more difficult when you are coming out of a long trip discussing dinner plans 

Besides loss of control or landing too fast but usually it is a long runway, there is load of risk forgetting aircraft config for landing or changing it, I know an instructor and student someone landed a DA42 gear up after they were asked to orbit, they did not even recall why they cleaned the aircraft on those two orbits and who did what...

You have to be careful what you agree to. Way back as a student pilot, my introduction to night flight with landings at a field with an operating control tower, one lap around the field with my CFI included "make a right 360 for spacing" on downwind, followed by "can you do another 360 while the helicopter comes in" and "one more 360 should do it." When we left to go home, I said "this student pilot thanks you for the introduction to night flight," which got a laugh.

Just a few Mooney Summits ago, while still a few miles out Tower asked if I could make a short approach to 34 to get in before a business jet [I forget the type--Gulfstream? I dunno anymore]. So I flew my normal downwind [is there such a thing for our planes at a 2-mile-long runway?], turned base not far beyond the end of the concrete, landed around the 500-foot mark and was off the runway at M], then taxied back to the ramp, shut down, got out and was unloading my luggage when the jet first appeared on short final . . . . If I recall, we were discussing where to eat lunch at the time. 

[EricJ]

This has been turning into a meme lately and I thought this one was particularly good.

[midlifeflyer]

On 6/26/2020 at 8:17 AM, wishboneash said:

Two idiots who didn't seem to know the rules. The pilot in question and the Henderson ground controller!

The Henderson ground controller had no way of knowing what happened except for a pilot complaining about the horrible service 1NR received. Do you think he was his time listening to TRACON?

[steingar]

13 hours ago, EricJ said:

This has been turning into a meme lately and I thought this one was particularly good.

I used to watch that show.  I always thought it was a pity that they let things degenerate so badly.  Sort've like that guy just kept up on his merry into the Bravo despite several opportunities to deescalate.  I'm surprised that fellow still has his certificates.

[bradp]

On 6/27/2020 at 8:15 AM, afward said:

For what it's worth, VASAviation's "radar" display is a recreation based on various tracking data websites.  He takes audio from LiveATC, grabs the appropriate tracking data for the area & timeframe, and feeds it to a piece of software written specifically for the channel.  That software generates the "radar" video.  As I understand it, actual controllers helped get the software "close enough" so it looks like the real displays, but it's entirely a recreation based on public information.

Having played ATC sim on Vatsim it’s the radar software used to move virtual airplanes around with a FlightAware feed pumped in (VRC or similar).  Clever but not exactly accurate.  If the controller says he’s in the bravo I’d go with that over the sim radar video overlay. 
 

Listening to the Audio feed sounds like road rage, hypoxia, cocaine or some combination thereof. 

[bradp]

I want to a version of this with woman yelling at the cat eating vegetables Meme. 

[201er]

On 6/26/2020 at 11:30 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I can't think of any situation that I would respond with "Unable" to that call from ATC. Unless I knew the call from ATC was coming and was planning my response.

I can think of many reasons to bust bravo and tell ATC unable:

Traffic conflict

VFR weather conflict

Fuel or engine trouble

Navigation issues

Medical issue

 

However, given his snarky/argumentative responses, I doubt that was the case. Reminds me of the nutjob who wanted to land in JFK so he landed on rockaway beach instead:

 

[Danb]

On 6/27/2020 at 3:23 PM, kortopates said:

 

 

Not trying to sound judgmental here. I know we all have our own comfort levels and differing experience levels with busy airports. But in my neighborhood, under the busiest TRACON in the world,  we can't solo a student pilot till they are able to perform a 360 in the pattern. Unfortunately they're a way of life here and because of multiple runways we have different pattern heights on different runways as well. Request to do a 360 don't always occur on the downwind, they occur equally  few miles out before getting onto final as well. I clearly can't know the circumstance that day but apparently the controller wanted to steer you away from final before you intercepted it. It may well have been late on the controllers part, but better late than sorry.  We've had too many midair collisions here in the pattern, one still very fresh in the memory of all our pilots. 

Last November I was on downwind entering right base at Hilton Head at 700 ft, and was given a left 360 over the ocean I felt a bit uncomfortable but safe ceiling were 1200 I was brought down under the deck there were two commuters landing in front of me, the controller was thanking me for my help and apologized for them messing up separation no attitude from either of us. Even though I fly as a hobby I seriously feel I should try to act as professional and competent as practical. The guy was over the top with his attitude doing everything he could to make it tough on all of us. The next guy asking for clearance from Vegas approach may be denied due to his unprofessional attitude and downright rudeness.

[Browncbr1]

On 6/26/2020 at 7:35 AM, Davidv said:

The only thing missing in this convo was 1NR saying "you're not the boss of me!" 

Or “whatevah,  I do what I want!”

[Hank]

Any update on this character???

[Sixstring2k]

This whole thing reminded me of this video but with a better ending: 

 

 

[Mooney in Oz]

8 hours ago, Sixstring2k said:

This whole thing reminded me of this video but with a better ending: 

Good video.  Thanks for sharing. Reminds me of this:

[flyer338]

I looked up Wife Approved LLC at the California Secretary of State’s business portal. The agent for service of process is Jeff Wachner. I looked Jeff Wachner up in the FAA airman database. There is a Jeffrey Alan Wachner of Redondo Beach, Ca in Los Angeles County. Mr. Wachner is listed as having a commercial pilot’s certificate: single, multi, and instrument. If he was acting as PIC during the incursion, one would expect him to be sufficiently experienced so as to avoid unintentionally entering bravo airspace. I did not see anything to show whether there has been a certificate action. 
https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/Main.aspx

 I agree with prior posters that his incursion was intentional, and from my perspective the act of a scofflaw. There is no place for such in aviation.

I am based at North Las Vegas, and so far I have found Nellis approach accommodating with clearance through bravo airspace. Yesterday, returning from Panguitch Utah, we were cleared into bravo, although we suffered some delay in landing due to the vectors necessary to keep us clear of a west bound heavy departing Nellis. I recognize a certain anti-authority streak in myself, but it goes into remission when I fly. I never considered challenging the Nellis controller - he was trying to keep my Mooney (small bug) from being eaten by an Air Force heavy (big bug). In short he was doing what was best for all concerned. The result was that I got to fly a few minutes longer. I fly because I like flying, and had no urgent need to be on the ground.

I think I recognized the voice of the LA controller, and I talked to her yesterday before she handed me off to Nellis. She was polite, correct, and professional. That has been my experience with Nellis and KVGT as well.

I recall a time long ago (1996) when I was landing my previous Mooney at Washington National. The controller gave me a 360 on final for spacing to accommodate a Delta jet on the river visual approach. The turn put us right over the Pentagon at 600 feet; I do not think that will happen again.

[tmo]

Not sure if this was posted before, but a link to the, as I understand it, follow-up call to the FAA is being discussed on Reddit. The call recording was supposedly FOIAed. Here is a link to the recording.

[gsxrpilot]

The guy still sounds quite indignant. He keeps saying he's sorry, but then keeps making excuses. 

[Davidv]

25 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The guy still sounds quite indignant. He keeps saying he's sorry, but then keeps making excuses. 

“Yeah....it was the...ah....turbulence that made me bust the bravo....that’s the ticket!”

Edited November 4, 2020 by Davidv

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Davidv said:

“Yeah....it was the...ah....turbulence that made me bust the bravo....that’s the ticket!”

"I was on flight following, she knew where I was going"

[EricJ]

Having a high frustration level with unrelated factors shouldn't be an acceptable reason to bust the B in busy airspace.
 

[jlunseth]

If he had an ill passenger why not report that to ATC and ask for a clearance? My experience with ATC is that they would find a way to help. He might have to explain any special handling, but that is quite a bit better than indignantly busting the Bravo and having to explain that.

[kortopates]

Doesn't sound like the supervisor was going to recommend an enforcement action or followup with the FAA, which seems like a shame to me. But don't really know if its up to him. I believe it automatically goes to the FAA regardless of their opinion. 

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

Doesn't sound like the supervisor was going to recommend an enforcement action or followup with the FAA, which seems like a shame to me. But don't really know if its up to him. I believe it automatically goes to the FAA regardless of their opinion. 

I thought I heard somewhere that he had to talk with the FSDO but there wasn't any enforcement action, just a warning not to let it happen again.

I was once given the "number to copy" and had a nice long conversation with the FSDO. I heard that with cops and speeding tickets, the longer the conversation goes, the less likely you are to get a ticket. I took that to heart and so the FSDO and I talked for over two hours. At the end he was "satisfied no additional training, or other action is warranted." (At least an hour and a half of that time he was telling me stories from flying in the "good old days".  It turned out to be an enjoyable two hours of hangar flying.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

Doesn't sound like the supervisor was going to recommend an enforcement action or followup with the FAA, which seems like a shame to me. But don't really know if its up to him. I believe it automatically goes to the FAA regardless of their opinion. 

ATC doesn't generally recommend enforcement. They just write up events and they get submitted. It is up to the enforcement folks at the FSDO and above to decide what to do. I haven't the vaguest clue what happened here, but most deviations these are handled via the Compliance Program with no violation record.

[aviatoreb]

I don't think this would work: "I declare emergency because I am very frustrated and in a bad mood."