ZamF16 Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Fellow Bravo owners, My fuel pressure sensor has been gradually failing over the last year. The fuel pressure indication would periodically peg at max pressure and then sometimes go to zero (that will get your attention) before returning to normal. I looked in the Mooney Illustrated Parts Catalog and found these two options: Druck PDCR821-0062-100 and (alt) Kulite APT153-100-30 Unfortunately, I cannot find a source for either one. Has anyone had this issue; more importantly has anyone found a source or an alternative? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 @ZamF16 My fuel pressure sensor from my '93 M20M will be for sale in the near future when the avionics shop finally gets enough time to install my JPI EDM 930. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 Dave did you call Lasar? Often, they are a good resource for things like these... unfortunately if it is a specialized sensor, it may take months to get one made... The cool thing about MSers... they like the JPI and EI instruments.... and often post their cast-offs for sale... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstephensugiono Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 Fellow Bravo owners, My fuel pressure sensor has been gradually failing over the last year. The fuel pressure indication would periodically peg at max pressure and then sometimes go to zero (that will get your attention) before returning to normal. I looked in the Mooney Illustrated Parts Catalog and found these two options: Druck PDCR821-0062-100 and (alt) Kulite APT153-100-30 Unfortunately, I cannot find a source for either one. Has anyone had this issue; more importantly has anyone found a source or an alternative? Dave I thought mine was bad when my gauge failed so I bought a new one years ago. Come to find out it was the wire to sender coming loose. So I have a used working one for sale if you need it!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstephensugiono Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 I thought mine was bad when my gauge failed so I bought a new one years ago. Come to find out it was the wire to sender coming loose. So I have a used working one for sale if you need it!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstephensugiono Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 [mention=7345]ZamF16[/mention] My fuel pressure sensor from my '93 M20M will be for sale in the near future when the avionics shop finally gets enough time to install my JPI EDM 930. The transducer is for the original fuel gauge on the plane. Does putting the new JPI do away with the fuel gauge on the panel?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 The transducer is for the original fuel gauge on the plane. Does putting the new JPI do away with the fuel gauge on the panel?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yes, for the 900/930, it replaces all engine related instruments: tach, fuel gauges, oil gauges, MP, etcTom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstephensugiono Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 Yes, for the 900/930, it replaces all engine related instruments: tach, fuel gauges, oil gauges, MP, etcTom That’s great to know! Are you the same guy on IG with the SV?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 That’s great to know! Are you the same guy on IG with the SV? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZamF16 Posted June 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 20 hours ago, carusoam said: Dave did you call Lasar? Often, they are a good resource for things like these... unfortunately if it is a specialized sensor, it may take months to get one made... The cool thing about MSers... they like the JPI and EI instruments.... and often post their cast-offs for sale... Best regards, -a- No, I haven't tried Lasar. Thanks for the advice on the cast offs. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Bishop Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 My APT-153-1000-30psig transducer has also failed. Apparently, fuel pressure transducers for Mooney's are made out of unobtainium. EI has a 6 to 8 week waiting period for the cluster gauge, or an extra $500 to get it in a week. JPI customer service stinks to high heaven (their sales woman was bitter, crass, and made me want to hang up the phone) and you have to sell a kidney to buy the 900 series to get the TSO'd fuel pressure. UMA has a replacement transducer and gauge for a fraction of the cost. But, they need the electrical specs for the original Kulite transducer, which I have not been able to find. Specifically, I need to know what the electrical output is at zero fuel pressure, 50% fuel pressure, and 100% fuel pressure. With this information UMA will be able to set up a TSO'd transducer for those of us who have the Kulite installed. Any of you tech wizards out there have this information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Don Bishop said: My APT-153-1000-30psig transducer has also failed. Apparently, fuel pressure transducers for Mooney's are made out of unobtainium. EI has a 6 to 8 week waiting period for the cluster gauge, or an extra $500 to get it in a week. JPI customer service stinks to high heaven (their sales woman was bitter, crass, and made me want to hang up the phone) and you have to sell a kidney to buy the 900 series to get the TSO'd fuel pressure. UMA has a replacement transducer and gauge for a fraction of the cost. But, they need the electrical specs for the original Kulite transducer, which I have not been able to find. Specifically, I need to know what the electrical output is at zero fuel pressure, 50% fuel pressure, and 100% fuel pressure. With this information UMA will be able to set up a TSO'd transducer for those of us who have the Kulite installed. Any of you tech wizards out there have this information? Who is UMA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alejandro cantarini Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 (edited) Don’t waste your time or money trying to locate a used sender, electronic instruments fuel pressure gauge is way easier and will give you many years of service. I was in the same boat bought a used one and fail, end up wasting time and money. they will set the low and high pressure alarm to what you order so use the parameters for the analog one at ordering time. Edited August 5, 2020 by Alejandro cantarini 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 We have a real resource for JPI around here if you want to talk with somebody that makes sense? JPI customer service is... has... well.... errrr.... ugh! All you have to do is ask Jeev. Jeev has a pilot store and sells JPI stuff... he also has the inside connection to get JPI things done. Skip the lack of service org.... Aka sales prevention team.... If you prefer good customer service with a good engine monitor... we have that guy too... he works for the friendlier company called EI... When I needed an OilP sensor... it too was made of unobtainium... four month lead time.... So many MSers are selling off their old instruments to get JPIs and EIs and Garmins..... post a pic and part number... somebody probably has it on their shelf... Be friendly... it helps motivate an MSers to go out to the hangar and remember to look... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcovington Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 17 hours ago, Don Bishop said: My APT-153-1000-30psig transducer has also failed. Apparently, fuel pressure transducers for Mooney's are made out of unobtainium. EI has a 6 to 8 week waiting period for the cluster gauge, or an extra $500 to get it in a week. JPI customer service stinks to high heaven (their sales woman was bitter, crass, and made me want to hang up the phone) and you have to sell a kidney to buy the 900 series to get the TSO'd fuel pressure. UMA has a replacement transducer and gauge for a fraction of the cost. But, they need the electrical specs for the original Kulite transducer, which I have not been able to find. Specifically, I need to know what the electrical output is at zero fuel pressure, 50% fuel pressure, and 100% fuel pressure. With this information UMA will be able to set up a TSO'd transducer for those of us who have the Kulite installed. Any of you tech wizards out there have this information? Here is what I have from my notes on my aircraft. I don't recall right now if I got this from the specs or measured it. Kulite Pressure Transducer Fuel Kulite P/N APT-153-1000-30PSIG Mfg Date 7/02 Serial No 6385-4-320 Excitation 10VDC Range 0-30PSIG Max Torque 75 in-lbs TSO-C47 Kulite Semiconductor Products Inc Leonia, NJ USA Wire color code: Red +EXC voltage (10.27 VDC) Black -EXC voltage White +SIG Green -SIG PSI mVolts 0 0.4 2 7.0 6 20.2 10 36.7 16 56.0 22 72.9 28 92.3 30 102.4 Aircraft wiring harness connector MS3474W10-6P Transducer harness connector MS3476W10-6S A - Shield B - Red C - Black D - White E - Green F - not used Now for the rest of the story and what I found from testing the unit. I had a problem with my Kulite fuel pressure and oil pressure transducers. They would work most of the time and fail occasionally in flight. The fuel transducer was far worse than the oil transducer. When I descended they would start working fine. It usually would happen when the plane was outside and there had been some rain around. I tried flushing the fuel line thinking it was dirt in the line. I checked all the wiring connections. I pulled the gauge cluster and transducer out of the plane, fabricated a test harness and ran the setup on the bench using air pressure for days without it having a problem. I ran my test setup for about a week continuous so well over 150 hours with no failure. I used heat and cold, banged the transducer on the bench and still couldn't get it to fail. I spoke with the Kulite people about the transducer but they couldn't provide much information as they said that the transducer was built to Mooney specs and Mooney owned the data. He said he couldn't provide any tech information but he could answer questions. Our conversation went something like: "OK. on pin one the signal is..." To his credit he answered all the questions and I got the information that I needed which is where the information above came from. He told me that the Kulite transducers had a MTBF of some large number I don't recall right now so really shouldn't fail over the life of the plane. He told me there had been a lot of unnecessary replacements of Kulite transducers. The problem went on for a couple of years. I ran the test setup a couple of times and everything always worked on the bench and would fail in the air. After a while it finally dawned to me that these transducers are gauge transducers with a vent hole. The Kulite transducers have their vent about mid way of the body just about where you would position the Adele clamp when mounting them. What I concluded was that the Adele clamp was partially restricting the vent hole. When there was sufficient moisture around the vent hole would be blocked enough that the transducer would not have a reference causing it to trend slowly to zero. I remounted both transducers several years ago making sure the vent holes were unobstructed and haven't had a problem since. Recently, after annual I had a fuel pressure problem and when I checked the clamps had been moved and the vent hole covered. Re-positioned the clamp and everything is working fine. My advice is to check the vent holes on the transducer before replacing it. If you decide to replace the transducer I have included a drawing from Mooney that someone posted on here years ago. It specs an Omega replacement unit for the MP and oil pressure. When I looked several years ago Omega had one that will work for fuel pressure. Sorry, I don't recall the part number as I didn't need to replace mine. Jim Transducer Replacement.pdf 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Bishop Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 Thank you, Jim! That was exactly the information I needed. I'll post again after getting the UMA transducer and let everyone know how it went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Junkin Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 @ZamF16 did you get your issue remedied? I had the same experience as @drstephensugiono in that my fuel pressure was reading erratically (off-scale high in my case) and in the course of troubleshooting my mechanic opened and cleaned all of the connections to the transducer and it returned to normal operation. Hopefully you didn't replace an otherwise serviceable part. Cheers, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 JL, That is quite the observation... I know a couple of Bravo Owners discussing OilP change with altitude... I think I’ll copy this link and head that way... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZamF16 Posted August 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 On 8/5/2020 at 9:17 PM, Junkman said: @ZamF16 did you get your issue remedied? I had the same experience as @drstephensugiono in that my fuel pressure was reading erratically (off-scale high in my case) and in the course of troubleshooting my mechanic opened and cleaned all of the connections to the transducer and it returned to normal operation. Hopefully you didn't replace an otherwise serviceable part. Cheers, Rick Rick, no I haven't resolved the issue yet. Pretty much my fuel pressure is now just pegged at max from engine start to shutdown. Every now and then (one to two seconds in a flight) it will return to normal then jump back up. Based on all the advice, I am going to try cleaning connections and checking the vent holes. I am not going to jump to replace the transducer quite yet. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZamF16 Posted August 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Jim, thanks for the detailed post. Your info is very helpful. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcovington Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 1 hour ago, ZamF16 said: Rick, no I haven't resolved the issue yet. Pretty much my fuel pressure is now just pegged at max from engine start to shutdown. Every now and then (one to two seconds in a flight) it will return to normal then jump back up. Based on all the advice, I am going to try cleaning connections and checking the vent holes. I am not going to jump to replace the transducer quite yet. Dave Dave The plugged vent hole will not cause the fuel pressure or oil pressure to read high. A plugged vent will cause a low/intermittent reading. A bad connection will cause either one to read full scale high so I would look for a broken wire or bad connection (as Rick @Junkman said). On my aircraft (1996 J) they use a lot of the AMP CPC connectors and that was what was installed for the fuel pressure and oil pressure transducers. The CPC connectors work OK but I have had several problems with them that wasn't obvious. The problem I see is that the pins lose connection and what they are connected to fails with an open circuit (high on oil and fuel pressure). I have examined the pins when this happened and have never found a visible problem. They all looked OK. I have gotten to the point where if I have a problem I just replace the pins. In the engine compartment I have spliced the wires on the fuel flow transducer, replaced the entire connector on the fuel/oil pressure transducer, spliced the wires on the right nav light and replaced the pins in the flap connector. I think you can see the trend here as these were all CPC connectors. If you are dealing with a mechanic that isn't comfortable with electronics you are probably better off removing the connector and butt splicing the wires. There is plenty of wire that if you ever need to replace the transducer you will still have enough. If the mechanic has the pins and crimper you can just replace the pins. There are only five pairs on the fuel/oil pressure transducers. One other note. There are two types of CPC connectors used. One with small pins (MIL-SPEC pins) and one with large pins (commercial specs). The problems I have seen are only on the large pin connectors. I have included the information on the CPC connectors. Of course, if you are near Huntsville, AL I can lend you the crimpers and pins. I keep them in the hangar. Jim CPC Amp Connectors.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Bishop Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 My transducer (Kulite) is welded shut. So, on the chance the vent was the issue, we found some very, very small drill bits and brushes. We cleaned out the vent and tried again. As soon as the transducer touches anything grounded, the needle pegs to full pressure. We think there is an internal wire that is loose or broken. Since we can't open it, and the wires are attached with some magical plastic substance, we've gone ahead and ordered the new transducer from UMA. Should be here shortly, and I will keep you posted on the cost of the unit as well as if it works or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 Don do you have a part number for that sensor? I want to do some reading... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Bishop Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Well ... UMA couldn't build the transducer with the specs provided, despite saying they could when I talked with them. Time to sell a kidney. Disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Bishop Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 The Kulite is part number: APT-153-1000-30psig 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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