RobertGary1 Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 18 minutes ago, Hank said: Hmmm . . . I've always thought that an investment is something that is intended to be sold at a higher price than it was purchased. No it’s more than that for what is referred to as the “rational investor” in academia. Even cash in the bank will generate interest. The investor is looking to maximize his risk vs return. If you are emotionally attached to something it doesn’t work. -Robert 24 minutes ago, Hank said: Hmmm . . . I've always thought that an investment is something that is intended to be sold at a higher price than it was purchased. So far, I've invested in, lived in and sold three houses and one condo, with little emotional attachment to anything but the listing price. The condo brought the highest percentage return, and a higher net return than the three himes combined, despite having the lowest purchase price (less than half of houses #2 ). Some people view their airplanes as an investment (see Dr. Ken's epistles on buying and selling his many, many planes). Some people like fixing them up and making them nice. Some people just fly the snot out of what they have. All three approaches are equally valid, and all three work. Not saying that you can’t make money on a plane or house but it’s not an optimized investment if you aren’t willing to sell it if someone offers you more than it’s worth because you are living in it or attached to it or wouldnt by something more boring like a tractor if it made more money. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 What the world needs is a better mouse trap!!!! For $7500 all in The biggest safety item and what the majority of pilots would like would be a plain and simple left/right (GPS track) alt hold A/P Most PPs would be very satisfied with the above. Most PPs are not IR rated. Triple redundant CATIII A/Ps are not needed. (pun intended). 20-30K for just straight and level is ridiculous. Especially in a 30-40K airframe. For the Js and above its a good "investment" If Brittan had their act together it could happen If BK had their act together the TT A/P would happen for Mooneys. Its just lack of business acumen and leadership. Sorry but their are ways to get the FAA to move 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 BTW the Brittain A/P systems would be a real, money maker in todays world with a reasonable investment. Have no idea what the current owners are doing when business is clamoring at the door. It works good, it is already approved for a large number of airplanes It would fit the dead simple A/P notch perfectly. One doesn't need full approach capability to make lots of money on the majority older legacy airplanes that need an A/P for cruise conditions. In this day and age GPS/HDNG track and alt hold would sell thousands. AND be the biggest safety item one could install. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 Garmin should be announcing that 65 and newer Mooneys will be getting an approval for the GFC500... availability looks like before the end of the year... Like all things avionics... always check the details... The F was completed recently... time for the short bodies... the waiting is the hardest part... -Tom Petty If thinking about buying a X-mas gift for your SB forever-plane... ask your favorite MS Garmin dealer... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, carusoam said: Garmin should be announcing that 65 and newer Mooneys will be getting an approval for the GFC500... availability looks like before the end of the year... Like all things avionics... always check the details... The F was completed recently... time for the short bodies... the waiting is the hardest part... -Tom Petty If thinking about buying a X-mas gift for your SB forever-plane... ask your favorite MS Garmin dealer... Best regards, -a- Its nice but most can't afford it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, cliffy said: Its nice but most can't afford it That IS the challenge... There is a certain subset of the Mooney world that will be able to make any use of the expensive devices... Even there, it would need to be a forever plane before they free up the AMUs required... And want to use it a lot... So many other important things can take priority... Hopefully, this follows the usual rules of supply and demand for mass production... If G can make enough of these things, to make them affordable... count a few years... I’m OK with installing pre-flown devices in my plane... I’m amazed every time I see a GTN or G500 come up for sale second hand... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 Still has to go back to G for recert and STC reassign if bought used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 When it comes to airplanes, it's foolish to think in terms of resale value in my opinion. Figure the plane itself is worthless after you buy it. Then do whatever your pocketbook will allow to make the flying experience the best it can be. Having an autopilot like the GFC 500 is one of those luxuries. And if you did sell a plane where the GFC 500 comprised a good portion of the resale value, you don't think the plane would get back a good part of the cost, not even considering how much faster it would sell? I'm finding a lot better perspective on life comes with increasing age where time and doing the things that make you happy is much more valuable than money. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron McBride Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, donkaye said: When it comes to airplanes, it's foolish to think in terms of resale value in my opinion. Figure the plane itself is worthless after you buy it. Then do whatever your pocketbook will allow to make the flying experience the best it can be. Having an autopilot like the GFC 500 is one of those luxuries. And if you did sell a the plane where the GFC 500 comprised a good portion of the resale value, you don't think the plane would get back a good part of the cost, not even considering how much faster it would sell? I'm finding a lot better perspective on life comes with increasing age. When I updated my F, I put in a 430w, audio panel, Stefan 30 with alt, and gpss and other good stuff. Over $40,000. Then speed mods, Then resealed the tanks, paint and interior. Enjoyed the electronics about 10 years and the rest for a couple of years. Did I get my money out, he’ll no. Was I safer, yes. Did I have more pride in the cosmetic improvements, yes. Sold the plane so I could retire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob865 Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 On 11/5/2020 at 11:18 AM, Ron McBride said: Stefan 30 with alt Is Stefan Otto's relative? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 It's all relative. Very few of us have ever increased our financial wealth by owning an airplane. But since owning an airplane makes me happy, and I have sufficient financial wealth to do so, I own an airplane. The very same statement can be made about putting autopilot that costs 80% to 90% of the hull value, into an airplane. It's also a true statement that rather than spending $25K on a $35K Mooney, you might think about spending the $60K on a different Mooney that already has the autopilot. But then again, if you've got sufficient blood, sweat, or treasure invested in this Mooney, it might be enough to keep the plane and spend the $$$ to add the autopilot. Of course I've been on the record around here with the opinion that one shouldn't buy any Mooney without an autopilot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: Of course I've been on the record around here with the opinion that one shouldn't buy any Mooney without an autopilot. Some of us would like to upgrade to a more capable AP than our Brittain units . . . . Although the heading bug is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorlon1 Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: It's all relative. Very few of us have ever increased our financial wealth by owning an airplane. But since owning an airplane makes me happy, and I have sufficient financial wealth to do so, I own an airplane. The very same statement can be made about putting autopilot that costs 80% to 90% of the hull value, into an airplane. It's also a true statement that rather than spending $25K on a $35K Mooney, you might think about spending the $60K on a different Mooney that already has the autopilot. But then again, if you've got sufficient blood, sweat, or treasure invested in this Mooney, it might be enough to keep the plane and spend the $$$ to add the autopilot. Of course I've been on the record around here with the opinion that one shouldn't buy any Mooney without an autopilot. It was this, and similar advice, (learned after MUCH lurking about) that I made an autopilot a 'must-have' in the airplane I was looking to purchase. Having the goal to earn my IFR ticket (and accompanying advice by many--with MUCH more experience than me--that IFR flying without an autopilot was crazy) solidified that requirement. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob E Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 I guess there are at least two schools of thought regarding spending AMUs on autopilots and other expensive upgrades: 1. View the matter from a financial standpoint: Can the expenditure be justified as an investment that will increase the resale value of the aircraft? Other than expenditures that are required for airworthiness or to make the aircraft sellable, the answer will almost certainly be "no." I spent a ton of money (at least for me) for a Lycoming zero-time remanufactured engine, two G5's, a used Garmin 400W WAAS GPS, a GTX-345, a JPI EDM-900 engine monitor, a new Garmin audio panel, LED upgrades to my KX-155 displays, a Garmin Flight Stream, a new vertical card compass, and new AirTex seat upholstery and carpets. Of all that stuff, only the new engine was required for airworthiness. From a financial standpoint, everything else was a terrible investment, completely unjustifiable, especially for a 55-year old aircraft. Especially for an owner in his 70s. 2. View the matter from an aviation standpoint: Can the expenditure be justified using the same reasoning that one used to purchase the aircraft originally? Was the idea to purchase it and sell it later to maximize ROI and minimize the cost of ownership? Or was the idea to buy it and enjoy it as much as possible? When I first bought my '65 C back in 1986, I didn't know which school of thought I fit into. I never dreamed that I would still own the same aircraft more than 34 years later and that my sons would grow up never knowing what life without a Mooney is like. (My older son now has a set of keys.) We've flown to Oshkosh, around the Statue of Liberty, had many breakfasts at the fly-in restaurant at Urbana, Ohio. We flew the path of the total eclipse back in 2017. I've been through several sets of avionics and this is my third engine. One forgets about the money spent but doesn't forget the wonderful experiences. And there will be lots more to come. GFC-500? Maybe. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeyechuck Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Bob E said: I guess there are at least two schools of thought regarding spending AMUs on autopilots and other expensive upgrades: 1. View the matter from a financial standpoint: Can the expenditure be justified as an investment that will increase the resale value of the aircraft? Other than expenditures that are required for airworthiness or to make the aircraft sellable, the answer will almost certainly be "no." I spent a ton of money (at least for me) for a Lycoming zero-time remanufactured engine, two G5's, a used Garmin 400W WAAS GPS, a GTX-345, a JPI EDM-900 engine monitor, a new Garmin audio panel, LED upgrades to my KX-155 displays, a Garmin Flight Stream, a new vertical card compass, and new AirTex seat upholstery and carpets. Of all that stuff, only the new engine was required for airworthiness. From a financial standpoint, everything else was a terrible investment, completely unjustifiable, especially for a 55-year old aircraft. Especially for an owner in his 70s. 2. View the matter from an aviation standpoint: Can the expenditure be justified using the same reasoning that one used to purchase the aircraft originally? Was the idea to purchase it and sell it later to maximize ROI and minimize the cost of ownership? Or was the idea to buy it and enjoy it as much as possible? When I first bought my '65 C back in 1986, I didn't know which school of thought I fit into. I never dreamed that I would still own the same aircraft more than 34 years later and that my sons would grow up never knowing what life without a Mooney is like. (My older son now has a set of keys.) We've flown to Oshkosh, around the Statue of Liberty, had many breakfasts at the fly-in restaurant at Urbana, Ohio. We flew the path of the total eclipse back in 2017. I've been through several sets of avionics and this is my third engine. One forgets about the money spent but doesn't forget the wonderful experiences. And there will be lots more to come. GFC-500? Maybe. I’m in the same boat as Bob E. Have owned my Mooney for 30 years. After starting out ownership with a partner (with an A&P) and finally owning her by myself I’ve rebuilt just about everything on the airplane “with the direct supervision of several A&P’s and IA’s”. Last year my local avionics shop and I have installed two G5’s, GTN650, new audio panel, new Garmin transponder with ADSB in and out. This past year we did an extensive annual including zero time Penn Yan engine, rebuilt prop with new hub and governor, replaced every hose on the airframe, new engine and cowl flap controls and rebuilt the nose gear (Lasar) and with Dan from Lasar’s help tightened up the tail. I’m even pre-wired for the new Garmin auto pilot if they ever get to the older C’s. Now thinking about a paint job. I have way more money in ‘984 than I’ll ever get out of her, but I have total confidence in her. No I can’t justify it. Yes I’m crazy. But I know exactly what I have in my plane. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasturepilot Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: It's all relative. Very few of us have ever increased our financial wealth by owning an airplane. But since owning an airplane makes me happy, and I have sufficient financial wealth to do so, I own an airplane. I tell everyone that owning an airplane may have saved my marriage in the pandemic.. it gives me an excuse to get out of the house and go do something. Aircraft ownership has given me the ability to roam the country at will, with speed and comfort. My wealth hasn’t increased as a result of aircraft ownership, but my life is much richer. 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 15 hours ago, Pasturepilot said: My wealth hasn’t increased as a result of aircraft ownership, but my life is much richer. Exactly! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 On 11/4/2020 at 8:58 PM, carusoam said: Hopefully, this follows the usual rules of supply and demand for mass production... When has the "G" ever followed the rules of supply and demand on any of their products? It has always been their price. their in house integration or the highway. Now don't get me wrong. They have good product but? On 11/5/2020 at 8:58 AM, donkaye said: When it comes to airplanes, it's foolish to think in terms of resale value in my opinion. Figure the plane itself is worthless after you buy it. Then do whatever your pocketbook will allow to make the flying experience the best it can be. Having an autopilot like the GFC 500 is one of those luxuries. And if you did sell a the plane where the GFC 500 comprised a good portion of the resale value, you don't think the plane would get back a good part of the cost, not even considering how much faster it would sell? Not arguing this philosophy for the Fs and Js and above but for the lower units they don't have the option. Nor do thousands of lower cost SE airplanes owned by the average pilot who just want to go somewhere VFR possibly the majority of small plane owners out there. Owners working on a tight budget just to be able to fly. These pilots and airplanes would be well served with just a basic left/right, alt hold A/P. How many lives could be saved in inadvertent IMC by non IR pilots? This could truly be a lifesaving as "the chute"!!!!! I'm going to start a new thread on NORSEE and A/Ps 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlySafe Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 Good news! My avionics guy just sent me an email, The GFC500 is now approved for the short body Mooney. This applies to aircraft made 1965 and later. the website of supported models has been updated. Celebration time. kz 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prflyer Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 20 hours ago, FlySafe said: Good news! My avionics guy just sent me an email, The GFC500 is now approved for the short body Mooney. This applies to aircraft made 1965 and later. the website of supported models has been updated. Celebration time. kz That is good news. By any chance did your avionics guy tell you the serial numbers that have been approved? They are not in Garmin's website -- it just says to contact your avionics guy. I have a 1965 E model, that was manufactured in December 1964. It is serial number 499. I'm trying to figure out if we made the cut or not. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlySafe Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 I'm sorry he did not, just the statement 65 and later; the footnote on Garmin site says the earlier models 62-64 are schedule to begin in next 12 month which implies all of the 65 models are covered. On that page there is a chat function and in perhaps the rep will be able to give you a more definitive answer. I'm still trying to understand what functionality i would get with my existing single G5 AI. My shop implied i would have to add the mu11 if i wanted to add the gad29b to allow nav function related to my IFD440. He said you cannot add the gad29b without a mu11. i thought the mu11 was only required if you added the G5HSI or wanted to follow mag heading bug with the single g5Ai setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drapo Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 2 hours ago, prflyer said: That is good news. By any chance did your avionics guy tell you the serial numbers that have been approved? They are not in Garmin's website -- it just says to contact your avionics guy. I have a 1965 E model, that was manufactured in December 1964. It is serial number 499. I'm trying to figure out if we made the cut or not. Thanks. According to this site: http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm , your M20E is a 1965 model. 1965 M20E Super 21 470 to 831 Lycoming I0-360-A1A(200 HP). Bendix fuel injection. Altitude power boost. Positive Control (PC). Four place. Colin Bitterfield's N3218S 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prflyer Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, drapo said: According to this site: http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm , your M20E is a 1965 model. 1965 M20E Super 21 470 to 831 Lycoming I0-360-A1A(200 HP). Bendix fuel injection. Altitude power boost. Positive Control (PC). Four place. Colin Bitterfield's N3218S Yes, thanks, it is a 65 model. I just got confirmation from Kyle at Garmin that my serial number is covered. Thanks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 On 11/17/2020 at 1:44 PM, gsxrpilot said: It's all relative. Very few of us have ever increased our financial wealth by owning an airplane. But since owning an airplane makes me happy, and I have sufficient financial wealth to do so, I own an airplane. The very same statement can be made about putting autopilot that costs 80% to 90% of the hull value, into an airplane. It's also a true statement that rather than spending $25K on a $35K Mooney, you might think about spending the $60K on a different Mooney that already has the autopilot. But then again, if you've got sufficient blood, sweat, or treasure invested in this Mooney, it might be enough to keep the plane and spend the $$$ to add the autopilot. Of course I've been on the record around here with the opinion that one shouldn't buy any Mooney without an autopilot. I took this advice to heart and found an E with STEC 30 and ALT hold. Now in every 2 hours plus work multi state trip I thank gsxrpilot 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Good pirep for @gsxrpilot! So... Having a Mooney can really change your life, in a very positive way... Then again... to own a Mooney you are already familiar with clearing some pretty high hurdles... Hmmmmm... it’s not the plane, it’s the people inside the Mooney... Go Mooniacs! Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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