Niko182 Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, Pilot boy said: Yeah he wants $60K, basically full price for it. At least I assume a 1964 E with 430 WAAS, engine monitors, STEC30, and fuel bladders is worth about that. I don't see them around for too much more. I think he needs to come down to around $50k to make it worth the risk but I appreciate any pricing insights. 60k for an E with a good engine, Waas GPS, autopilot, and bladders is a steal. The low use engine issue makes it a decent deal now. The moment he sells the plane to you its not his problem anymore. My M20S has 1760 hours and the engine and sat for 9 years only have been used for 70 hours. If I was selling it and someone expected me to offer a warranty on the engine, id tell them to stop wasting my time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 What a good M20E looks like... in thoroughly known condition... and fully loaded... Compare this one to the one you are looking at to figure out why the price of 60amu is so low... it is missing some things... or expensive things are in unknown condition... or are worn out already... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0nathan225 Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 Pulling a cylinder to allow for an internal inspection during the prebuy would hedge some risk of an idle engine right? If owner will allow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 You wouldn’t see the entire cam... Few owners will take this risk... If I pull enough cylinders to demonstrate how good the engine is... the price is sure to rise... It just added cost that doesn’t make the plane any better... Welcome to the world of used machinery... Doing enough maintenance to perfectly ensure the quality of the machinery... gets overly expensive... and induces maintenance related failures... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 Yeah he wants $60K, basically full price for it. At least I assume a 1964 E with 430 WAAS, engine monitors, STEC30, and fuel bladders is worth about that. I don't see them around for too much more. I think he needs to come down to around $50k to make it worth the risk but I appreciate any pricing insights. Prices have gone up in the past few years. I had same issue with my engine (low usage, no log entries except for annuals).But in the end, the price was attractive enough to accept the risk.I was able to put 700 hours on it before a bad cam made the engine unreliable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neshi Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 My F purchased last November was $54 originally asking $59 about same hours for engine. Same s-tec 30 430-Non WASS 1430 Hours on the engine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 Pecking order in capability IMHO is the Tiger -> C -> E Get the most airplane you can afford and hopefully you won't outgrow it right away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 4 hours ago, kortopates said: Pecking order in capability IMHO is the Tiger -> C -> E I believe you have the C and E swapped. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted June 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Niko182 said: 60k for an E with a good engine, Waas GPS, autopilot, and bladders is a steal. The low use engine issue makes it a decent deal now. The moment he sells the plane to you its not his problem anymore. My M20S has 1760 hours and the engine and sat for 9 years only have been used for 70 hours. If I was selling it and someone expected me to offer a warranty on the engine, id tell them to stop wasting my time. Is it sitting the last 9 years or before you owned it? The recency of the sitting is the problem. I don't like how all these folks have some sort of emotional connection to their plane and they let them sit and rot. Machines needs to be run. If you're past flying - let it go! Sell your plane to us younger pilots so we can keep em running. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 Don’t be surprised by a different engine sitting longer... Very few IO540s have the same bad cam issue as the IO360.... Same design, with two more cylinders tacked on the front... Continental, if they have a bad cam... it is still time for a new cam... but that doesn’t require an OH... To get it swapped out... My O360 lived outdoors and sat idle for 2years... no cam issues... but, it really stuck a valve in it’s coming back to life phase... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted June 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, carusoam said: few IO540s have the same bad cam issu A Beech owner is telling me a guy near his Beech hangar spends about 7 hrs per every 1 hr of flying he does on maintenance. Any thoughts on this? I thought the M20s were fairly low on the maintenance pecking order in GA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 Clearly means to me... don’t buy brand B! Anyone can’t do as much maintenance as they want... You will want to ask what he means by that.... My M20C flew around 100hrs each year... evenly spread out.... Its maintenance was an annual... It got its oil topped off... every eight hours... The tires got air every other month... (there are air-stop tubes for this now) It got washed and waxed to keep water from sticking to it... It may have even got its oil changed in the middle... I don’t recall... All maintenance like things were put on a list to get done at annual... This was called the CB method of flying a Mooney... it lived on a tie-down outdoors... it had a nice cover... I couldn’t have afforded any maintenance hours between flights... paying a mechanic cost too much... (Mechanic’s are worth it, I just had no money) Now... Is this gentleman’s idea of hours of maintenance... washing and waxing? You can always visit BT... mention you are thinking of buying a Mooney.... and want to know their opinion... Tell them about your friend that does a 7:1 hours of maint to flight ratio.... I’m sure they can give you better numbers with reasoning attached... Those numbers are more like helicopter maintenance... not single engine GA... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 Your Beech owner's friend could have bought a plane that he thought was a bargain on price, but had lots of deferred maintenance that the new owner is figuring out after purchase and spending a ton of time and money to correct and in the end could have saved money by looking for not the cheapest plane but one well maintained and in great shape. These kind of things have nothing to do with the particular brand and everything to do with how well taken care of they were before the person bought it. Just one of the reasons why a good PPI is so important. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted June 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, carusoam said: Clearly means to me... don’t buy brand B! Anyone can’t do as much maintenance as they want... You will want to ask what he means by that.... My M20C flew around 100hrs each year... evenly spread out.... Its maintenance was an annual... It got its oil topped off... every eight hours... The tires got air every other month... (there are air-stop tubes for this now) It got washed and waxed to keep water from sticking to it... It may have even got its oil changed in the middle... I don’t recall... All maintenance like things were put on a list to get done at annual... This was called the CB method of flying a Mooney... it lived on a tie-down outdoors... it had a nice cover... I couldn’t have afforded any maintenance hours between flights... paying a mechanic cost too much... (Mechanic’s are worth it, I just had no money) Now... Is this gentleman’s idea of hours of maintenance... washing and waxing? You can always visit BT... mention you are thinking of buying a Mooney.... and want to know their opinion... Tell them about your friend that does a 7:1 hours of maint to flight ratio.... I’m sure they can give you better numbers with reasoning attached... Those numbers are more like helicopter maintenance... not single engine GA... Best regards, -a- Actually I was on BeechTalk asking about maintenance on Mooney versus Beech and the Beech owner said he witnessed a guy at his airport spending 7hrs fixing his Mooney per every flying hour he did. I am not sure what that really meant as he didn't give me much specificity. Ill try to get some greater clarity on that thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted June 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 What's the best shop for a PPI near me (Omaha). I've heard of Wilmar, MN are there any other good ones closer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 What that means... You can’t get straight answers about a Chevy when visiting a Ford website... If you think the Ford guys are mean... you can’t get straight answers about a ford visiting a Chevy website... Now you have proof yourself... I probably like something, at least one thing, about B products... but I’m not going out of my way to be friendly about them around here... I did get a good sleep in the back of a V-tail once... It gently rocks you to sleep back there... as it drones along... bbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... Sometimes it just gets funny while picking on B products... Remember to maintain respect for everybody’s planes... you never know how a B driver will help you out... They have a nice beer tent at KOSH... and our used avionics guy flys one... our Whelen guy also has one... They’re on a different mission....Speed and efficiency don’t mean as much to them... they like big brand names too... have you see the beachjet? Or the starship? Yada yada.... Best regards, -a- 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flocki Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 Hi, I nearly bought an Tiger as well, before the Mooney came across. My takes: The Tiger is not for tall people. I am 6' and constantly hit my head on the ceiling during the flight. The Tiger basically is a no-go for any soft-fields. Low Ground clearance with the nosewheel construction make it notorious for prop strikes. The Tiger canopy entry makes it impossible to enter the cockpit during rain without getting the whole cockpit soaking wet. Florian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Banger Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 I don't have experience with the Tiger, but love the E. Fast, efficient, and relatively low maintenance airplane. Gas in SoCal has been in the low $3's right now so I pay $35/hr in fuel and am around 150-155 KTAS. Great useful load too, it is actually a 4 average size person plane. Like everyone says, look for a plane that is flying it will save you so much wallet pain. My only potential complaint is from passengers in the back on long hauls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, R-Banger said: My only potential complaint is from passengers in the back on long hauls. If these people don't live with you, tell them that's the benefit of owning, and invite them to drive home . . . . with a smile, of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Banger Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Hank said: If these people don't live with you, tell them that's the benefit of owning, and invite them to drive home . . . . with a smile, of course! I am right there with you. I might add it is plenty roomy and comfortable up front. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drapo Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 When I sold my Cherokee, back in 2010, I went through the same dilemna and even added a Piper Arrow to the equation. One of the biggest lesson learned from the Cherokee was to have a mechanic you can trust, even if is the more expensive kind, you’ll save a lot over the years... So first, I went in Maine to have a look at an Arrow. Papers were in order, engine high time but « runs like a mill » And paint was below 5/10, I passed. A Tiger had caught my eyes in Texas, mid-time engine minimal Narco radios, asked my A&P and he said because of nose wheel, fragile construction and glue issues it wouldn’t be a wise choice. A V35 came along, and he almost freaked out, he said that would cost me an arm and a leg to maintain. Then came the Mooneys; a 65 C in OK, paint and interior almost new,, low time SMOH and VFR King radios. Via AOPA, found an A&P for the PPI; ended up compression on all cylinders were under 60psi and the books revealed a « minimal » overhaul. Finally, found a 65 E in upstate NY, new paint and interior, mid-time engine and IFR with a GNS430. Drove down with my A&P to have a look, he said « If you don’t buy it, I willl » and I bought it. Over 10 years and I’ve put a lot of money in upgrades and maintenance but dispatch reliabilty is over 99%, it still looks good and performs flawlessly, Which isn’t the pilot’s case... So guess what my suggestion is... Go Super 21 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark21m20c Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 My impression of the m20C . It seems to be a very efficient and solid built airplane . Things I like ( : speed , fuel burn, manual gear, front seat comfort , the way it handles. The back seat is very tight . My mission(to the coast ) is under 300 miles and no mountains to fly over . The big things to me were finding aircraft with no corrosion that flew straight at a good price . On my budget ( acquisition cost / operating cost ) the C works. Just my opinion ( I am no expert) . Good Luck !!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glafaille Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 Former Tiger owner here, and professional pilot and most of all a pragmatic type. If the mission is cheap transportation then a Tiger fills the bill. It’s very close to the C in speed (135 kts true), carries the same load, has more back seat room, and does it all with a fixed pitch prop and fixed gear. It is cheap to operate, my insurance was just over $500 per year and annuals are cheaper because it takes less time to do one (no swinging of the gear). I flew mine all over the country in both VFR and IFR conditions. Sold it in preparation for retirement. However, if the mission is to build time in complex airplanes then the Tiger is not the one. The Tiger, like the Mooney is STOUT despite it’s appearance to the contrary (to some). Virtually no in flight structural failures to my knowledge. The problem with Tigers is they are hard to find and expensive when you do. They just didn’t make that many of them compared to Mooneys. Grumman was late to the “Golden Age of GA” game which fizzled in the late 1970’s to early 1980’s. If you have Tiger questions, a quick PM will net you a quick reply. I prefer to talk about Mooneys on mooneyspace. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted June 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, glafaille said: Former Tiger owner here, and professional pilot and most of all a pragmatic type. If the mission is cheap transportation then a Tiger fills the bill. It’s very close to the C in speed (135 kts true), carries the same load, has more back seat room, and does it all with a fixed pitch prop and fixed gear. It is cheap to operate, my insurance was just over $500 per year and annuals are cheaper because it takes less time to do one (no swinging of the gear). I flew mine all over the country in both VFR and IFR conditions. Sold it in preparation for retirement. However, if the mission is to build time in complex airplanes then the Tiger is not the one. The Tiger, like the Mooney is STOUT despite it’s appearance to the contrary (to some). Virtually no in flight structural failures to my knowledge. The problem with Tigers is they are hard to find and expensive when you do. They just didn’t make that many of them compared to Mooneys. Grumman was late to the “Golden Age of GA” game which fizzled in the late 1970’s to early 1980’s. If you have Tiger questions, a quick PM will net you a quick reply. I prefer to talk about Mooneys on mooneyspace. i've pretty much decided not to pursue Tigers. They are way too hard to find, they cost way too much for what you get, and I'd rather have the ability to fly true coast to coast. My goal is to time build for the regionals so that adds another plus to the complex side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted June 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 On 6/15/2020 at 8:11 PM, Hank said: If these people don't live with you, tell them that's the benefit of owning, and invite them to drive home . . . . with a smile, of course! This I am not worried about. Mostly it's going to be the new baby and the future baby with no adults or teens in back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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