Baggage door

[Fry]

I have a 1995 MSE. Should I lock the baggage door before flight or not?

[Niko182]

I dont. If its locked you cant open it from the inside.  Id guess youre asking this because of the baggage door that flew of into that guys tail. If i had to choose between being stuck in the plane while its on fire or losing the baggage door, ill happily lose the baggage door.

[MooneyMitch]

Maybe....... maybe not .........

[tomatl]

I lock it. However, mine has the upgrade allowing unlocking from the inside. Off course, rescue could not enter from the rear ... Difficult question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

I dont. If its locked you cant open it from the inside.  Id guess youre asking this because of the baggage door that flew of into that guys tail. If i had to choose between being stuck in the plane while its on fire or losing the baggage door, ill happily lose the baggage door.

All Longbody's have the emergency latch from the inside to allow opening - even while locked. 

[bradp]

I like having a first responder being able to get in if needed.  My door stays unlocked. 

[carusoam]

My 94 O has the easy unlatch system that technically works when the door is locked... It has a pull to release device...
 

Expect that the 95 mid body was built the same way... Easy to test, easy to inspect for it being there... There should be a label on the inside  regarding emergency exit...

 

Need to get some Ops Decals... In case of emergency  or ‘Rescue’ for the handles...

A second door up front would be good too... 
 

Best regards,

-a-

[tomatl]

To add some numbers to the discussion: I found six reports in the NTSB database that include an unlatched/open baggage door in a Mooney. Half of them with fatalities. Would be interesting to know how this compares to rescues through the back. Mixed bag ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Airways]

I find that the bagage door gives a false sense of security.  First of all, I would never fit through that opening, unless they break my collar bones and second it’s on the same side than the main door. So in the event the plane comes to rest on its righthand side you still won’t have an escape route.

[buddy]

I check to make sure that the baggage door is locked before each flight. 

[BillC]

This reminds me of a time several annuals ago. With all the seats removed I decided to see if I could egress my Ovation through the baggage door. I’m 6’2” and 215lbs. I could do it with quite a bit of difficulty. I can’t imagine being able to do it with the seats back in. Especially if you or your rear seat passengers are hurt.

My good friend, who is a fireman at KBOS (Boston,MA) told me that no fireman would try to open a small baggage door (17” or 43.2cm X 20.5” or 52.1cm) to access passengers. They go through the windows or cut open the airframe.  I lock mine.

[Niko182]

I've gotten in through the baggage door to put bikes in the back. I find it pretty easy. I am however 6'3" and 160 pounds on a heavy day.

[kortopates]

1 minute ago, BillC said:

This reminds me of a time several annuals ago. With all the seats removed I decided to see if I could egress my Ovation through the baggage door. I’m 6’2” and 215lbs. I could do it with quite a bit of difficulty. I can’t imagine being able to do it with the seats back in. Especially if you or your rear seat passengers are hurt.

My good friend, who is a fireman at KBOS (Boston,MA) told me that no fireman would try to open a small baggage door (17” or 43.2cm X 20.5” or 52.1cm) to access passengers. They go through the windows or cut open the airframe.  I lock mine.

Exactly right. I am still waiting to read the first report of any rescuer climbing in a baggage door to attempt to pull out a disabled occupant. About the only reason you would even attempt that would be because the front door was blocked by fire.  nobody is going to climb if the bird is on fire. I've seen a # of Mooney wrecks and haven't seen sheet metal from the wing block the door from opening enough to egress - but of course anything is possible. But when professional rescuers arrive on the scene they're surely not going to use the baggage door and add any risk to a injured vertebrae, they are simply going to cut the roof off the plane, do what they can to support your neck and back and gently extract occupants without risking further injury. Any of us following the accidents has seen  pictures of this repeatedly. 

On the other hand we've read about lots of baggage doors opening in flight that caused their own emergency and sadly worse. After the third such instance at Mooney PPP's many years ago, the policy of always locking the baggage door was adopted to prevent further instances. We haven't had any since. As we've discussed elsewhere, can't say conclusively how they can open in flight with it fully latched but I think the evidence thus far is that we have yet to hear about the first "locked" baggage door opening in flight - all have been unlocked to my knowledge. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Exactly right. I am still waiting to read the first report of any rescuer climbing in a baggage door to attempt to pull out a disabled occupant. About the only reason you would even attempt that would be because the front door was blocked by fire.  nobody is going to climb if the bird is on fire. I've seen a # of Mooney wrecks and haven't seen sheet metal from the wing block the door from opening enough to egress - but of course anything is possible. But when professional rescuers arrive on the scene they're surely not going to use the baggage door and add any risk to a injured vertebrae, they are simply going to cut the roof off the plane, do what they can to support your neck and back and gently extract occupants without risking further injury.

My door handle broke through the roll pin holes once. Fortunately there was someone within waving distance to come let me and my CFII out of the plane. My C did not leave the factory with a baggage door emergency release lever . . . . Locking the baggage door would prevent you from egressing on your own. 

Because that flight ended early with total electrical failure, going somewhere else at the time was not a good option.

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

My door handle broke through the roll pin holes once. Fortunately there was someone within waving distance to come let me and my CFII out of the plane. My C did not leave the factory with a baggage door emergency release lever . . . . Locking the baggage door would prevent you from egressing on your own. 

Because that flight ended early with total electrical failure, going somewhere else at the time was not a good option.

I certainly understand that Hank, the Vintage Mooney's without the emergency latch make it a tougher call, especially those that have added the mod to open from the inside but requires the door to be unlocked. But given the experiences I relayed above it still an easy decision for me since I really find it unrealistic to use that baggage door for emergency egress.

I have near the identical situation you describe occur to me more than once before I replaced the door lock. In my case the worn out door lock had vibrated around to locked position in flight preventing us from opening the door. Each time we were able to get some one's attention to come over so we could hand them our keys through the side window and then they could unlock the door. But these days I think we're even better off because I can get on my cell and call some body even if its 911 or local police, but I doubt it would come to that. There is also the opportunity to get on the radio and call someone in the blind that may be monitoring or landed etc. I think there are still plenty of options for getting help rather than risking my baggage door doing a lot worse damage opening in flight. 

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

My door handle broke through the roll pin holes once.

I carry a small pair of ViseGrips in the seat pocket for that possibility.

[Hank]

6 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I carry a small pair of ViseGrips in the seat pocket for that possibility.

I have tools including a Robo Vise and a Leatherman, safely behind the back seat. An awkward retrieval with the CFII in the right front seat . . . .

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/10/2020 at 12:37 PM, Fry said:

I have a 1995 MSE. Should I lock the baggage door before flight or not?

Double-check this, but a 1995 Mooney, at the time of manufacture, should have had the ability for you to open the baggage the door from the inside. 

[GeeBee]

On 6/10/2020 at 2:53 PM, tomatl said:

I lock it. However, mine has the upgrade allowing unlocking from the inside. Off course, rescue could not enter from the rear ... Difficult question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A fire rescue is going to dismount his vehicle with pike in hand and pop that door like it was a can of Budweiser from the jam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bradp]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:06 AM, Airways said:

I find that the bagage door gives a false sense of security.  First of all, I would never fit through that opening, unless they break my collar bones and second it’s on the same side than the main door. So in the event the plane comes to rest on its righthand side you still won’t have an escape route.

My back seat occupants are 2 and 6.  They easily fit through the rear door.  Sometimes that is their preferred method of entry.  Each situation is different. I popped my door once - it’s not an emergency unless you let it be an emergency or have it depart your aircraft to the h stab.  A front or rear door pop means fly the plane don’t get distracted.  Look at the a36 nemacolin NTSB for an example of the contrary.  

[bonal]

After having ours pop open on rotation, latched not locked I always lock it if it's closed.  During my private training procedure for emergency off field landing is to open PAX door. We all know it's not going to swing out and cause a problem.  On one flight our PAX door wasn't closed properly and it popped open while climbing it was a non event with a return to land and close.  Not an expert just saying.

[EricJ]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:37 AM, Fry said:

I have a 1995 MSE. Should I lock the baggage door before flight or not?

Your airplane should have the internal emergency release that works even when the hatch is locked.   In that case, there's no reason to not lock it if you want to.

[carusoam]

I was looking for a Mooney YouTube Channel...

When I came across the infamous five people Mooney accident video...

You can see how they opened the plane to allow the five people out...

Easy accident video to view.., no blood, just one really injured M20C...

This is not recent, several years have gone by...

Plane was technically owned by Brent in TN... Smoky Mountain Aviation...

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/04/accident-occurred-april-18-2015-near.html

 

Reminder... always do the WnB... there’s an app for that...

throw on a T/O distance calc too....  

The estimated DA needed to make this flight successful.... probably required temps near 0°F...

Unfortunately, engine output would have exceeded rated HP... by  a significant amount...

real learning experiences everywhere...

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[bradp]

It seems to me that the folks who advocate most for locking the baggage door simultaneously are the folks who have an interior emergency release.  And others are saying that you can’t fit a person in or out of the hatch anyway. 

So why have the release handle?  Personally I have been in and out of the back door a lot when doing avionics / window / interior work or footy my keys and the I happened to have left back door unlocked. If I really wanted out the back and all my extremities are intact, it is not difficult to climb over the back seat and out. 

[Hank]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

I was looking for a Mooney YouTube Channel...

When I came across the infamous five people Mooney accident video...

You can see how they opened the plane to allow the five people out...

Easy accident video to view.., no blood, just one really injured M20C...

This is not recent, several years have gone by...

Plane was technically owned by Brent in TN... Smoky Mountain Aviation...

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/04/accident-occurred-april-18-2015-near.html

 

Reminder... always do the WnB... there’s an app for that...

throw on a T/O distance calc too....  

The estimated DA needed to make this flight successful.... probably required temps near 0°F...

Unfortunately, engine output would have exceeded rated HP... by  a significant amount...

real learning experiences everywhere...

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

And it shows clearly how Rescue gets people out--they just cut the top off . . . . .