Emergency Landing | Baggage Door Blow Off Mid Flight | Model K

[cnoe]

I'm late to the party on this thread. I too believe the OP did a fine job of handling the situation.

The smart move might be to simply keep my head down, but instead I'm going to open myself up to criticism by offering an alternative position on Mooney baggage doors.

Door security has been thoroughly discussed but I do not believe I've seen/heard of a single instance where a "properly latched" baggage door has inadvertently opened either during take-off or during flight. If there are confirmed instances of this I implore you to share them.

For several years I both latched and locked the baggage door in my M20-J prior to boarding. Now, in the past few years, after considerable thought and discussion I now choose to "confirm" proper closing/latching but purposely DO NOT "lock" the door. I know that I'm not the only person who does this. My door is either fully open or it is securely latched; this is a checklist item for me as well.

I firmly believe it is most important for a first responder to have easy immediate access to the plane's interior in the event of an incident or accident. If I am incapacitated my survival may depend entirely on the efforts from the first person to arrive on scene (who may or may not be trained fire/rescue personnel). While I would prefer to have the cockpit door ajar or functional I cannot count on that and the baggage door is the next best option for ingress/egress.

I do know that my interior emergency release mechanism remains functional even with the door locked but that does me no good if I'm incapacitated in some way. Either way it would be a bad situation (having to be dragged out the baggage door) but at least bystanders would have a chance to do so if they could open the door from the outside.

Differing opinions are welcomed, but the risk of a damaged/departed baggage door seems much less to me than the risk of entrapment to a disabled pilot.

CNoe

[RedSkyFlyer]

1 minute ago, cnoe said:

I'm late to the party on this thread. I too believe the OP did a fine job of handling the situation.

The smart move might be to simply keep my head down, but instead I'm going to open myself up to criticism by offering an alternative position on Mooney baggage doors.

Door security has been thoroughly discussed but I do not believe I've seen/heard of a single instance where a "properly latched" baggage door has inadvertently opened either during take-off or during flight. If there are confirmed instances of this I implore you to share them.

For several years I both latched and locked the baggage door in my M20-J prior to boarding. Now, in the past few years, after considerable thought and discussion I now choose to "confirm" proper closing/latching but purposely DO NOT "lock" the door. I know that I'm not the only person who does this. My door is either fully open or it is securely latched; this is a checklist item for me as well.

I firmly believe it is most important for a first responder to have easy immediate access to the plane's interior in the event of an incident or accident. If I am incapacitated my survival may depend entirely on the efforts from the first person to arrive on scene (who may or may not be trained fire/rescue personnel). While I would prefer to have the cockpit door ajar or functional I cannot count on that and the baggage door is the next best option for ingress/egress.

I do know that my interior emergency release mechanism remains functional even with the door locked but that does me no good if I'm incapacitated in some way. Either way it would be a bad situation (having to be dragged out the baggage door) but at least bystanders would have a chance to do so if they could open the door from the outside.

Differing opinions are welcomed, but the risk of a damaged/departed baggage door seems much less to me than the risk of entrapment to a disabled pilot.

CNoe

Hi CNoe,

I too do not lock to aid first responders. Apparently ‘Locked or unlocked’ it wouldn’t have made a difference, the internal handle which was incorrectly installed in our situation overrides the lock function. 

Kr Steve

 

[PT20J]

I don’t lock mine either. After investigating the lock mechanism thoroughly, I’m convinced that locking isn’t necessary if the latching mechanism is functioning properly.

Locking could be a useful procedural step if it causes you to double check that the door handle is properly latched. In my case, my procedure is never to shut the door without latching the handle. This procedure came after I gouged my arm climbing aboard with the door shut and the handle unlatched. Pain is a powerful memory jogger. 

I think the validity test for any procedure is to have a logical reason for using it. Some may be more concerned about emergency access from outside and choose to leave it unlocked. Others may be more concerned about forgetting to latch the door and wish to lock it as an extra step to prevent taking off with it unlatched. Either decision seems reasonable to me.

Skip

[carusoam]

Chuck,

I am in the fully closed or fully open camp as well...

I also am the only one that closes the baggage door...

On windy days, people try to be helpful and want to lower the door...

It gets closed and latched, but not locked...

 

Side note... I have also had the benefit of first responders...  (non-aviation, 10 years ago...)

Best regards,

-a-

 

[donkaye]

I have found that people have very strong opinions on locking or unlocking of the baggage door.  Since each position has a valid support position, I don't try to change anyone's mind over right or wrong on this matter.

Since I have more control over transitioning students, I will state both positions as clearly as I can, and then recommend my position, which favors ease of entry to first responders.

[slowflyin]

• I tend not to lock.  If I’m flying with my life raft it’s last in, on top of the luggage with a go bag.  I can’t remember which key opens the baggage door standing in the hangar.   Pretty certain standing on the wing of my sinking AC would help my memory. 

[ArtVandelay]

I’m not a first responder, but I think getting past a locked baggage door will be the least of their problems. Probably easier to just knock out the windows or pry open the door. Going through the baggage door to pull someone out? I like to see someone try that without inflicting physical damage to an already hurt person.


Tom

[EricJ]

20 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I’m not a first responder, but I think getting past a locked baggage door will be the least of their problems. Probably easier to just knock out the windows or pry open the door. Going through the baggage door to pull someone out? I like to see someone try that without inflicting physical damage to an already hurt person.


Tom

The quicker the access the better, any access is good access.   Even if they don't drag you out that way, if they can get in to get to you and stabilize you (or somebody you care about), more easily or quickly than otherwise, it's a good thing.

Any impediment to rescue or egress is not desirable.   We take some as tradeoffs, but if there's a tie breaker always take the improvement in egress or access.

 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, slowflyin said:

• I can’t remember which key opens the baggage door standing in the hangar.  

Solution: Silver colored key for engine; Bronze colored key for locks.

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Solution: Silver colored key for engine; Bronze colored key for locks.

My old Mooney has three keys, and are all the same color. I put plastic covers on the heads:  blue for bags (baggage door, obviously); green for go (passenger door); red for fire (ignition).

I've had copies made where the keys hqve colored material glued to the heads, and I use the same scheme with them.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Hank

[PeteMc]

Regardless of the lock, no lock discussion.  When I arrive at the airport I unlock the Passenger door and then the Baggage door AND my keys stay in the Baggage door lock.  

When I'm done with my pre-flight, loaded any baggage, etc., etc., to go anywhere I need to get the keys which makes me check the door. 

(And on my keys the plastic color code is Blue for the ignition because of the 100LL color. )

[jetdriven]

5 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I’m not a first responder, but I think getting past a locked baggage door will be the least of their problems. Probably easier to just knock out the windows or pry open the door. Going through the baggage door to pull someone out? I like to see someone try that without inflicting physical damage to an already hurt person.


Tom

You may get the door pried open, but you’re not kicking any windows out, now if you have a special tool such as a fireman’s pick ax and you hit it 50 times you might, but those windows are a lot tougher than you think they are. 
I retrofitted my Baggage door to the 1978 and newer style, which has an interior release handle. However, I don’t lock the door anymore, because if the handle closes flush there’s no circumstance where it can lift itself. 
However, after talking with the doctor who’s friend crashed a Mooney  on the runway and it ended up upside down, the cabin door would not open. but somebody else came along, got the baggage door open and got them out. 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by jetdriven

[aviatoreb]

Two comments.

I switched to surfly electronic ignition and then I also got the electro air switch which is a button - so no more ignition key.

And I have just one key that operates both the baggage door and the pilot door - so just one key.

I do have one of those tiny hammers in one of my pouches near the pilot position.  One of those little hammers with a point end designed for breaking out windows.  It works - I tried it on a window on an airplane that was having windows removed anyway - it works very easily.  It also has a cut the seat belt knife on it.

Hope never to use that stuff.

E

[spistora]

46 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Two comments.

I switched to surfly electronic ignition and then I also got the electro air switch which is a button - so no more ignition key.

And I have just one key that operates both the baggage door and the pilot door - so just one key.

I do have one of those tiny hammers in one of my pouches near the pilot position.  One of those little hammers with a point end designed for breaking out windows.  It works - I tried it on a window on an airplane that was having windows removed anyway - it works very easily.  It also has a cut the seat belt knife on it.

Hope never to use that stuff.

E

Here's some "scientific" demonstrations to back you up. 

 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, spistora said:

Here's some "scientific" demonstrations to back you up. 

 

That little orange hammer is exactly the one I have.

[ArtVandelay]

That little orange hammer is exactly the one I have.

I have the thicker windows, and tried the orange hammer, didn’t work, even with the window off the plane where I could get a full swing, I doubt it would be any better trying from inside the plane.

[Brian E.]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I have the thicker windows, and tried the orange hammer, didn’t work, even with the window off the plane where I could get a full swing, I doubt it would be any better trying from inside the plane.

Agreed--not happening.  I've busted many a car window and plexi/lexan windows from the outside and they are challenging.  The glass piercing hammers work well on...glass. I haven't tried them on plexi or lexan from inside but I'd be surprised if they work better from inside the plane.

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I have the thicker windows, and tried the orange hammer, didn’t work, even with the window off the plane where I could get a full swing, I doubt it would be any better trying from inside the plane.

No kidding. How thick?

It broke through standard side windows (of thickness I don't know) with ease.  

[MinneMooney]

1 hour ago, Brian E. said:

Agreed--not happening.  I've busted many a car window and plexi/lexan windows from the outside and they are challenging.  The glass piercing hammers work well on...glass. I haven't tried them on plexi or lexan from inside but I'd be surprised if they work better from inside the plane.

Maybe you need one of these!

[MinneMooney]

Here is where it’s mounted.

[carusoam]

Scratch Lexan off the list...  

Polycarbonate has come a long ways over the decades... it has high impact strength, great clarity and color...

Of course, it is not what is used in our windows...

Polycarbonate came into wide spread use in the ‘80s.  Clarity and color improved since then...

We have...

Plexiglass, PMMA, polymethylmethacrylate, or just acrylic.... 

great clarity, quite brittle, cracks easily, cracks love to propagate...

 

1/8” is normal thickness... doubling up and going with 1/4” gives better impact resistance and some sound protection as well...

 

 

A polycarbonate windshield would definitely improve the protection from wildlife ingress into the cockpit...

if you have time, after the accident...   and you need to find a pre-stressed crack to propagate...

• start with the thin windows
• hammer at or near the screws (if screws were used in your plane)
• any scratched areas, can aid with the crack initiation/propagation...
• remember, acrylic shatters into sharp pieces...  use protection if able...
• Use as much energy as you can find... big, fast swing...
• Concentrate the energy with the pointiest hammer...

 

Note about car windshields... they are different. They are two layers of glass with a plastic film in the middle... the plastic keeps the broken parts in place better than glass alone...  you may see a crack propagate but don’t feel it from the inside of the car... it is the outside layer mis-behaving...

 

PP thoughts only... not an emergency services guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I retrofitted my Baggage door to the 1978 and newer style, which has an interior release handle. However, I don’t lock the door anymore, because if the handle closes flush there’s no circumstance where it can lift itself. 

Not in my case, try this:

With the handle flush, just rapidly thump the hatch with the ball of your fist to vibrate the hatch door. In my case it will start to open but seems to stop after opening a 1/4” or so after 20 seconds.

[EricJ]

16 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I do have one of those tiny hammers in one of my pouches near the pilot position.  One of those little hammers with a point end designed for breaking out windows.  It works - I tried it on a window on an airplane that was having windows removed anyway - it works very easily.  It also has a cut the seat belt knife on it.

As mentioned, I wouldn't count on that working.   It depends on whether it was acrylic or polycarbonate, and potentially how old it was, too.   If it was old and had been stored outside a lot, it may have gotten more brittle and more easy to fracture.

Great when it works, but not something to count on.

[MoonFlyer68]

Just thought I would throw out there i found your video as part of a compilation video on YouTube about nearly fatal accidents.

 

 

[Brent]

On 5/30/2020 at 8:18 PM, kortopates said:

I wish I could say more definitely. As you know the two striker plates where the rod go into the door frame are steel - secured with a pair of small bolts. The only way the door can open is for the latching handle un-latch so that the rods retract to clear the strikers. When locked they can't possibly do that, which is why years ago after 3 of these occurring  at MAPA PPP's the board adopted the policy that they must be locked before flight. Most of us won't fly with anyone without the door being locked.

I know many are concerned about being trapped inside after an off field landing but I do believe the window can be easily broken by rescue personnel if it can't be kicked out by an injured occupant. But given how these doors can and have been known to depart in flight I think I'd rather keep it locked. Most of us have the emergency release on the door which bypasses the lock as well.   

Another potential issue is just walking by the unlatched baggage door on pre-flight. "I know a guy" that happened to three months after he acquired his Mooney. Door flipped open on takeoff. Pilot realized the source of the noise and breeze about 500' AGL just below the overcast. Declared an emergency, made a U-turn and landed safely. (As I taxied off, the tower asked if I concurred the emergency was resolved. I said yes, and that was the last I heard of the emergency declaration part.) Sorely bruised ego, slightly bent piano hinge, still functional door. Oh, and the plastic liner blew off, so I got a little training in interior plastics work. Although it wasn't the issue, I always fly with the door locked now.

I saw the other comments about the safety release - does that emergency release indeed bypass the lock?