Realistic options for two-axis autopilot

[fr8dog62]

I have been a member here and a 1980 J owner for a year now. I have always gotten great advice and insight from this group. Here is my problem. My J has an old (39 years old) single axis Century autopilot that has been to the shop three times in the last three years and once again it is inoperative. I see no reason to send it back for repairs anymore due to its limited capacity and suspect reliability. I have priced from my local Garmin shop here in NC, and from Gulfcoast an upgrade to a GFC 500 two-axis a/p and two G5’s to replace the old vacuum powered DG and ADI. Both of these instruments are old and in need of replacement as well if I do a modern A/P upgrade. That is my opinion based on flying them for the past year. The problem is the cost. I know many of you experience the same challenge. The two quotes for the dual G5’s and GFC 500 installed are $32k and $35k each. There is no way I can swing that without winning the lottery. I think I might be able to invest around $15k-19k if I am lucky. Does anybody have any suggestions on possible options? I guess I could wait two to three years and hope to save the money but I would like to start taking some longer trips with my wife soon. I would like a reliable two axis autopilot that would have GPSS. I like my J model and it only has 200 hours on the engine so I would like to keep her and upgrade what I have but it must be affordable. I currently have a new GNX-375 added in December and a GMA 345 added at the same time, otherwise everything else is original. Any thoughts? Should I just shut up and hand fly for the rest of my life and be grateful I am lucky enough to to own such a great plane to begin with or are there other options I have not thought of. Thanks!

 

Todd

[ArtVandelay]

There is no free lunch in aviation.

What I would do if I were you is scan all the aviation classified forums for parts for your autopilot. Those upgrading to GFC500 will have lots of old equipment that may be keep you going for a while.

[MIm20c]

Might want to add a single g5 now in the AI location and hand fly it for another year(s) until you have funds in place.  TT might have their AP certified by that time and hopefully it will be sub 9k installed. 

[ArtVandelay]

Might want to add a single g5 now in the AI location and hand fly it for another year(s) until you have funds in place.  TT might have their AP certified by that time and hopefully it will be sub 9k installed. 

I can’t see how that’s going to happen. You still need to install servos, GPS connections, etc. GFC does VOR/ILS, but it’s the same work, why would one be significant cheaper than the other?

[PJClark]

I'd keep looking for a better price.

FWIW--mine was all part of a total panel re-do, but in my deal these items were separately priced:

G-5 AI (installed as backup to G3X):  $3250

GFC500 2 axis installed:  $10,700

Electric trim, installed (3rd servo):  $3100

That's about $17,000.  Another G5 will cost about $2500, plus a magnetomter, other stuff and install labor as an HSI equal to the hardware cost--figure maybe $5000???

I'm not sure I see how this gets to be more than somethig between $20-25K.  I also had Gulf Coast quote me--they were way higher. I live in Ohio, I left my Rocket at the shop in Greeley, CO for 8 weeks to get it done, but it was $5k less than any other quote I got.

[Bob - S50]

Those quotes seem high. We had our KFC200 removed and installed a GFC500 with 4 servos and dual G5's for $31,000. I would ask other shops. I suspect you could get a 2 servo install for something around $25,000.

[Hector]

Several out there installing TT for 7500-8000 all in. Unfortunately not approved yet for Mooney’s. I’m holding off for a while and see if TT finally gets approved. I helped install one in a Cherokee and it was very simple. Knocked it out in 3 days with well written instructions


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[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I can’t see how that’s going to happen. You still need to install servos, GPS connections, etc. GFC does VOR/ILS, but it’s the same work, why would one be significant cheaper than the other?

Supply and demand. Garmin dealers feel they can name their price right now. Dealer cost for a 2 servo gfc500 system for the Mooney is around $6k. The spread between that and the retail amount given to the buyer on the invoice allow for additional “hidden” profits. 

[philiplane]

A single axis Century 21 autopilot doesn't take a lot to troubleshoot and repair. When you say it's inoperative, what does that mean? Will it do nothing at all? Or hold wings level but not track a course? What does it do when you do the autopilot pre-flight test?

[louisut]

We priced out a two-axis GFC-500 install for a K a few months ago and it was about $22k. For reference, dual G5s was $11.5k and together it was $34k.

IMO if you're willing to spend the money on the plane but need more time, then I'd save. The TruTrak I think is promising and while I'm not interested in one, I'm hoping that once it's certified that it will perhaps bring the Garmin down in price.

What's wrong with the Century 21?

[fr8dog62]

13 hours ago, philiplane said:

A single axis Century 21 autopilot doesn't take a lot to troubleshoot and repair. When you say it's inoperative, what does that mean? Will it do nothing at all? Or hold wings level but not track a course? What does it do when you do the autopilot pre-flight test?

The unit has power but will not engage or test. Where would I start on the troubleshooting? Thanks!

[StevenL757]

20 hours ago, fr8dog62 said:

The problem is the cost. I know many of you experience the same challenge. The two quotes for the dual G5’s and GFC 500 installed are $32k and $35k each. There is no way I can swing that without winning the lottery. I think I might be able to invest around $15k-19k if I am lucky. Does anybody have any suggestions on possible options?

Todd, have to agree with @PJClark and @Bob - S50.  Your quotes do seem high.  I just went through a similar exercise with my shop, which will be pulling me in on 8-June for a second round of upgrades.  I trust them implicitly and have spent a ton of money with them.  Although they - like all shops - are out to make money, they’ve treated me as well as others I’ve referred, very fair and provided top notch work.

PM me and we can connect.  You’ve stated your needs very well in your original post and I’d love to see your project come together.

Steve

[philiplane]

You should find a 68S1025 manual for the system, which should include the 1D772 manual for the computer itself. Most of the time the problem is a transistor, a transformer, or something simple. 

https://www.eflightmanuals.com/ITEM_EFM/SLIST_EFM.asp

[gsxrpilot]

20 hours ago, PJClark said:

That's about $17,000.  Another G5 will cost about $2500, plus a magnetomter, other stuff and install labor as an HSI equal to the hardware cost--figure maybe $5000???

I'm not sure I see how this gets to be more than somethig between $20-25K.  I also had Gulf Coast quote me--they were way higher. I live in Ohio, I left my Rocket at the shop in Greeley, CO for 8 weeks to get it done, but it was $5k less than any other quote I got.

That shop in Greeley, CO just did another J for sub $20K. It's probably worth the trip out here to get it done. I've got a guest room if you need to stay a night. (Less COVID than a hotel room.)

[carusoam]

So much good advice around MS...

I have so little value to add...

except this...

This looks pretty modern too...

-a-

 

[bradp]

I have a working radio selector, trim system, and roll servo for a CIIb.  I don’t know if the parts numbers are the same or not.  In North Carolina. Brad 

[louisut]

On 5/31/2020 at 8:14 AM, fr8dog62 said:

The unit has power but will not engage or test. Where would I start on the troubleshooting? Thanks!

If you're open with keeping your autopilot, I'd suggest starting with a specialist: https://webairconsulting.com/services/

Personally, I don't know if I'd continue spending money in an old single-axis autopilot. I think it's a better value to save for a modern one instead.

[Niko182]

I posted this on another thread but it can probably be useful here too.

Here is the price of the entire GFC500 price layed out, because other people reading are probably curious about it
GFC500 AP control Panel: $2,800
GSA28 servo: 1400 x 4 = $5,600
Product Info Kit = $50
Basic Install Kit = $2,000
Pitch Trim Kit = $850
Yaw Damper Kit = $850
Labor for installation of GFC500 = $5,000
Labor for Yaw Damper = $800

Yaw Damper alone = 3,050
Total = $17,950

-850 for pt kit

-850 for yd kit

-2800 for lack of 2 servos

-800 for labour of YD

-1000 for approx labour of PT.

that brings it down to 11.5 amu

that brings it to give or take 12k for just 2 servos and hooking it up to the GPS. There's a g5 for sale here that's 1800. You can install that yourself with the help of an A&P. Obviously your lacking all the approach benefits without the g5, but you can add that later.

There's your 12 to 15k install for an autopilot.

[fr8dog62]

14 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I posted this on another thread but it can probably be useful here too.

Here is the price of the entire GFC500 price layed out, because other people reading are probably curious about it
GFC500 AP control Panel: $2,800
GSA28 servo: 1400 x 4 = $5,600
Product Info Kit = $50
Basic Install Kit = $2,000
Pitch Trim Kit = $850
Yaw Damper Kit = $850
Labor for installation of GFC500 = $5,000
Labor for Yaw Damper = $800

Yaw Damper alone = 3,050
Total = $17,950

-850 for pt kit

-850 for yd kit

-2800 for lack of 2 servos

-800 for labour of YD

-1000 for approx labour of PT.

that brings it down to 11.5 amu

that brings it to give or take 12k for just 2 servos and hooking it up to the GPS. There's a g5 for sale here that's 1800. You can install that yourself with the help of an A&P. Obviously your lacking all the approach benefits without the g5, but you can add that later.

There's your 12 to 15k install for an autopilot.

Thanks Niko! This is great information and can help me plot my path for this install and future upgrades.