66' M20E Instrument Panel

[Nukemzzz]

So while the engine, motor mount, nose gear, control cables, and flap actuator are all out, I decided that since I've already dug a massive hole...why not keep digging?

I'd like to start work on two more things:

1. Replace the co-pilot panel

2.  Install an ADSB equipped Transponder

See the current state of the panel below.  Note the EDM-730 in the top right.  I put it there to quickly get me back in the air with plans to clean things up later...well...the engine is out for at least another month so I might as well do it now.  There is also a TB instrument in the glove box...useless there.  

I also need a transponder and so I might as well go with ADSB.  I'm leaning towards getting a GARMIN GTX 335 ADS-B TRANSPONDER WITH GPS + GAE 12 ENCODER / MULTI CHARGER PROMO KIT FOR CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT.  I don't know much about Avionics... would you agree this is a good one for me?  

My overall plan:

1. Keep the RPM and Manf/fuel gages in their current location.  I like the steam gages and they work fine.
2. Shift the 730 over to the left top so it is closer.  Remove the engine monitor warning light for now and move it to Pilot side later.
3. Put the transponder right below it to save space in the middle stack for a GPS at a later date.
4. Put the Audio Panel to the right of the EDM
5. Put USB plugs somewhere or keep cigarette lighters. (the latter is easier since both are already wired and ready to go.
6. Maybe put an i-Pad mount in the open space that this has created.  Or put a really cool Mooney Logo and drop the needed placards (I think many are missing) over here.
7. Put all the add on breakers above the factor breaker location (You can see several in the glove box area, what you maybe did notice is a couple of rouge ones on the right side in random locations.)
8. Some day I'll re-do the pilot panel, move the TB over to the pilot side at that time, replace the Narco radio with another KX so it's smaller, and insert a GPS unit in the stack to move back towards IFR capabiltiy.

My plan is to have a local shop cut the co-pilot panel for me, however, I don't have good resources for making my own engineering drawings (Even though I'm an engineer)... My day job company uses Creo (Pro-E) and I no longer need the software in my current role so I don't have it any longer.  My main home PC is a MacBook, but I do have an older laptop that can maybe run Solidworks.

I think the easiest route for me is to use the EAA provided Solidworks.  Does anyone have the SolidWorks cad file to get me started? Much of it I could measure, however, the upper right portion of the panel isn't easy to define since is a sweeping curve.  Hopefully one of you have already plotted this out.

Or... maybe I can contract one of you to make the CAD file for me?

Lastly... I'm not sure what I would need to do to mount the Transponder case.  I think it needs to screw in from the sides at the panel so I'd need provisions for this behind the panel but I'm not sure.  Thoughts on this?

 

I figure if I start with this it will be a trial run for doing the pilot side later.

Thanks for your help and guidance!

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Nukemzzz

[Nukemzzz]

Here you can see the middle stack.  The Narco radio is quite large.  In the bottom there was a DME...it was stolen before I bought the plane.  I removed the tray last weekend to make it easier to get to the control cables.  So I have wires ready to go for the transponder!

[ArtVandelay]

I’d put transponder over on the right, it’s usually only manipulated either on the ground or in stable flight, no need to be handy in the center stack and move JPI over so that it’s in your scan.

[Nukemzzz]

So it turns out Lasar has a blank panel to get me started for about $150. This might be my easiest path to getting started. 

[Nukemzzz]

Ok, I'm very confused by Nulites.  They need to do some major work on their product information.  I've been researching them for an hour and several things are unclear.

I see Nulite and Nulite LED.  I see some Nulite LED Kits that include a PWM dimmer to allow dimming of the LED version in the kit.  However, I also see in many LED version listings that they can be used with existing aircraft dimming systems.  It doesn't say some, it doesn't say you may need to change out all the lights for LED., it says it works with existing dimmers.  The version that doesn't say LED has no mention of what the light source is, nor how long it should last.  If they last as long as regular incandescent bulbs then you all are crazy for using them if you have to take the panel apart to replace them for $54 each time one burns out(nowhere does it say if the internal bulb is replaceable or how it is even lit).  Also, their website is terrible and not helpful, it has no mention of LED wiring.  How in the world were you all able to pick what you need and what sold you on a product that is so poorly described? 

I'm also seeing that they are too big to fit the MP/Fuel and RPM gages in another post on this forum which is what I need them for.  Its unclear if I can even make them fit if I trim them.

Help!  

• How long does the non-LED last in your experience?
• Is the bulb replaceable or just the whole unit
• If I put an LED version in two of my gages in the M20E and use the wiring from the existing panel post lights what will happen?  Will they work or not?  If they will work, then what the heck do I need the kit with the dimmer for?  My guess is the answer is no because LED needs PWM to dim and these are too cheap for that circuit to be included in the light housing itself.  
• I'm not doing the whole dash panel at once and so for a period of time, if I get the LED, I'll have a mix of old post lights and these LED Nulights.  It seems that I'll need to run these on a different circuit with a separate dimmer in the dash if I'm right about them needing a PWM dimmer.

It really seems like I should skip the LED version if you all report that the standard ones don't burn out.

/Rant

 

[carusoam]

Nuke,

1) are you going to fly in IMC?
 

2) are you going to fly in the dark?

3) These will change the priority of the questions you have asked...
 

4) The TnB is an old back-up device that won’t work very well in actual IMC... second AIs are all the rage...

5) Flying in the dark works really well for some... not so well for others...

6) LEDs are the latest tech for lights... they don’t dim very well using 60s technology... unless you need to save the dough... the PWM dimmer with LEDs is the way to go...

7) my lights will last forever based on the night flying I stopped doing decades ago... 

8) Night flying is some of the best, smoothest flying ever... not to be feared...I did much of my IR training in the winter after dark...

Best regards,

-a-

[Nukemzzz]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Nuke,

1) are you going to fly in IMC?
 

2) are you going to fly in the dark?

3) These will change the priority of the questions you have asked...
 

4) The TnB is an old back-up device that won’t work very well in actual IMC... second AIs are all the rage...

5) Flying in the dark works really well for some... not so well for others...

6) LEDs are the latest tech for lights... they don’t dim very well using 60s technology... unless you need to save the dough... the PWM dimmer with LEDs is the way to go...

7) my lights will last forever based on the night flying I stopped doing decades ago... 

8) Night flying is some of the best, smoothest flying ever... not to be feared...I did much of my IR training in the winter after dark...

Best regards,

-a-

I plan to fly in the dark quite a lot actually, and at some point I plan on getting my IFR rating.  Until then no IMC will be planned, but stuff happens...

I would like to use LED because of the longer life as well as the lower power consumption (I'm sticking with a generator during this engine overhaul).  However, I don't want to mess with the core aircraft electrical system at this time.  If the standard Nulite has a good track record of lasting as many hours as the engine, then I'll probably just use them...if I can trim them enough to get them to fit in this Co-Pilot side installation.  That way i can just connect the existing panel cover wires directly to the new Nulights and carry on.  

 

 

  

[oldguyscanfly]

It doesn't appear that you have a GPS navigator? I've been very pleased with my GTX 375 Navigator/ADSB in/out Transponder.

[Nukemzzz]

54 minutes ago, oldguyscanfly said:

It doesn't appear that you have a GPS navigator? I've been very pleased with my GTX 375 Navigator/ADSB in/out Transponder.

That would be nice but it's out of my price range at the moment.  I'm exhausting most of my rainy day funds with the engine out for repair, nose gear overhaul, flap pump repair, and the broken engine mount....  I might just put a slot for the Transponder now and hold on that purchase in fact.

[carusoam]

For low cost lighting that lasts forever... Led post lights...my M20C had a few of them...

made by Whelen, sold through aircraft Spruce...

Leave one standard bulb in the circuit, and the standard dimmer works fine...

-a-

[Nukemzzz]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

For low cost lighting that lasts forever... Led post lights...my M20C had a few of them...

made by Whelen, sold through aircraft Spruce...

Leave one standard bulb in the circuit, and the standard dimmer works fine...

-a-

By works fine do you mean that the LED ones dim then as well?

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

By works fine do you mean that the LED ones dim then as well?

Yes. All LED requires a different dimmer; LED mixed with incandescent will all dim together with a standard dimmer.

Point:  I replaced the bulbs over my dining table with LED, had to replace the $4 rotary dimmer with a $30 LED dimmer. These prices are 5 years old, and aircraft parts are much higher cost . . . .

P.S.--I enjoy my Nu-Lites. Some were in the plane when I bought it in '07; I added more in '15.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Hank

[Nukemzzz]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Yes. All LED requires a different dimmer; LED mixed with incandescent will all dim together with a standard dimmer.

Point:  I replaced the bulbs over my dining table with LED, had to replace the $4 rotary dimmer with a $30 LED dimmer. These prices are 5 years old, and aircraft parts are much higher cost . . . .

P.S.--I enjoy my Nu-Lites. Some were in the plane when I bought it in '07; I added more in '15.

Would you recommend that I just install the non LED?  Any idea how long the standard ones last?  Seems to be the easiest way to go. 

[Hank]

Just now, Nukemzzz said:

Would you recommend that I just install the non LED?  Any idea how long the standard ones last?  Seems to be the easiest way to go. 

That's what I have, standard non-LED Nu-Lites. No idea of their life, but I also did much of my IFR training after work in WV winter. No idea when they were installed  other than pre-2007.

Look at it this way--will they be better than what you have now? Even if they only last 5-6 years?

[David_H]

On 5/26/2020 at 10:00 AM, Nukemzzz said:

I also need a transponder and so I might as well go with ADSB.  I'm leaning towards getting a GARMIN GTX 335 ADS-B TRANSPONDER WITH GPS + GAE 12 ENCODER / MULTI CHARGER PROMO KIT FOR CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT.  I don't know much about Avionics... would you agree this is a good one for me? 

While there are nicer ADSB options out there, the GTX 335 is a nice step up when compared to spinning knobs on older transponders.

 

On 5/26/2020 at 11:15 AM, Nukemzzz said:

So it turns out Lasar has a blank panel to get me started for about $150. This might be my easiest path to getting started. 

The pre-cut right panel may be the least stressful option if you're planing to keep the Tach and MP in the same position. It might also be useful to plan a clever way to easily delete the TC and intercom holes (without having to cut another right panel) in the case that you later decide to update the audio panel and re-do the left panel.

[Nukemzzz]

26 minutes ago, David_H said:

While there are nicer ADSB options out there, the GTX 335 is a nice step up when compared to spinning knobs on older transponders.

 

The pre-cut right panel may be the least stressful option if you're planing to keep the Tach and MP in the same position. It might also be useful to plan a clever way to easily delete the TC and intercom holes (without having to cut another right panel) in the case that you later decide to update the audio panel and re-do the left panel.

I’ll be making a trace of the blank part when it arrives in case I need another one day!

[Nukemzzz]

So I'm starting to lay things out to see how it looks.  The attached mock up is to scale.  Everything but the transponder and lights I already have and I'm just rearranging.  White circles is the two cigarette lighter sockets.  I just can't see paying $300 for USB sockets when this works fine.  The grey little boxes are post lamps for primary engine gages, I'll drop Nulites under the RPM and Manf/Fuel gages.

Can you think of any issues with this layout?

 

[Andy95W]

Personally, I would want the JPI as close to center as possible. It's the thing I look at most.  I also installed a warning light for the JPI alarm on the pilot's side.

[Nukemzzz]

Good point. And especially true if I add Manf and RPM to the JPI. 

[Guest]

These LED post lights are quite affordable and are available in several colours.  Made by Aero-lites.com

Clarence

[tmo]

10 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

Would you recommend that I just install the non LED?

I would make an effort to get the LED versions to work.  Not as much for long life, but for the reduced current draw and heat.  FWIW, there are LED lights that are labelled as "dimmable" which might work with a standard dimmer.

[Nukemzzz]

Revision #2.  Thanks to Andy for the idea for moving EDM Closer.  Note that I think I want a Ram mount under the intercom so I can place my full size iPad on that side tilted towards me.  I'm not sure if I should put it above or below the audio panel.  I'll likely port the audio into the "ENT Input".  I've never tried that input, but I believe it is sound into the intercom...like music.  If so, it seems useful to have Foreflight sound piped into the intercom here as well.

 

 of m

[Nukemzzz]

So selecting the best transponder value is complicated.  I thought I wanted the Garmin, now I'm seeing it's not only the most expensive option, but I guess it also doesn't come with the GPS antenna?  

My IA is recommending Trig.  My avionics guy seems to like Apperro Stratus.  

I'm concerned that I don't know enough about the inter-connectivity benefits between brands and models for one.  Is there a benefit to the Garmin because the altitude encoder is separate and it can talk directly to my future GPS unit which makes adding it cheaper for example?  If I get the Trig will adding a GPS cost me more later?

I was thinking that I'd buy the transponder, mount it all, have the Avionics guy make the important connections after that and then bring it online.  I had a notion that the remote encoder would make this easier but maybe not.  

What do I lose if I just go with the cheaper Trig or Appareo?  (One way is to go with the tiny Trig one and the separate GPS Position box).

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/av/adsb/appareo11-16274.php

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/av/adsb/trigtt22.php

 

Any advice on this for me? 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Nukemzzz

[tmo]

Trig (I have a King, but would buy Trig if I needed to change).

[chriscalandro]

I'll be selling my Stratus ESGI kit very soon with encoder, complete harness, gps antenna and adsb in device if you are interested.  It will come with the full harness and everything wired an done.  You will need to plug it into power, static line, install the antenna (I'm not including rg400) and go.

Edited May 28, 2020 by chriscalandro